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Ok I understand the reasoning behind the Storm Eagle Rockets "weapon" (singular) being a multiple barrage weapon.

I also understand the argument that it is a single weapon firing d3 blasts, not a unit such as three mortars.

Does either have more RaW concrete evidence?

I'm thinking it's the latter, because it is a single weapon, with four turns of ammo, firind D3 blasts.

Gwar half said it himself, when firing directly it is treated as a single weapon firing multiple blasts (scatter each individually) but he says not when firing indirectly. I don't see why it is different when firing indirectly. Again it isn't multiple models firing a barrage it is one weapon.

Just looking for a more concrete answer one way or the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another way of putting it - it is a single barrage of d3 blasts, not a barrage of multiple units firing single blasts.

Not quite sure what you're asking. This is how I believe most people interpret the Manticore's firing sequence (explained on P.58 BRB):

1) Determine if you are firing directly or indirectly
2) Roll D3 for number of blasts
3) If firing directly -
A) Place template such that it covers the maximum number of models
B) Disregard minimum range but check to see if you exceed maximum range (unlikely... but possible)
C) Roll 2D6-BS and scatter die for first blast
D) Resolve hits on scattered template
E) Repeat C and D as necessary until you have resolved all of your D3 blasts and tally the total number of hits
4) If firing indirectly -
A) Place template such that it covers the maximum number of models
B) Check both minimum and maximum range
C) Roll 2D6 (-BS if in sight, full 2D6 if not) and scatter die for first blast
D) Resolve hits on scattered template
E) For each additional blast, roll the scatter die and -
I) If a scatter is rolled, place a second template touching the first in the direction of the arrow.
II) If a hit is rolled, place the template anywhere provided it is touching the original template AND covers the maximum number of models
F) Tally the total number of hits
5) Roll to wound
6) Celebrate!

Okay so step 6 doesn't exist.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your confusion? What part of the procedure are you disagreeing with?

DoW

I think the confusion is from resolving the D3 plates differently when firing directly/indirectly.

I believe the shots should be resolved as in your "indirect" (1) sequence regardless of if the shots are direct or indirect, but I don't have the rules close so I can't check if the sequence below (2) is only applicable to barrages.

Related:
How is a Heavy 2, Blast-weapon resolved. As per option 1 or 2?

I have used 2 in the past, but I may be wrong.

Anything that has only the 'blast' description is used exactly as the rule book states on pg.30 (basically the same as the 'firing directly' portion of the procedure above) Multiple blasts are resolved separately with their own scatter.

On the Manticore issue, upon re-reading the BRB and codex I think I understand where the confusion with the 'ordnance barrage' rules comes into play now. The rules for ordnance barrage don't specify what exactly happens for weapons with multiple shots (since I believe the Manticore is the only vehicle that is ordnance barrage and fires more than once) nor do they, funnily enough, actually specify what happens with squadrons of vehicles firing multiple ordnance barrage either.

Since it is generally agreed that multiple ordnance barrage weapons are resolved in the same way that multiple barrage (non-ordnance) weapons are resolved, I don't see why it should be any different for a vehicle that just so happens to be firing what essentially results in a multiple ordnance barrage. There's definitely two viewpoints, but I think it should be resolved the way I described above.

A question to consider would be:

How would you resolve the shots by the following weapon - Squisha 12-96" S7 AP4 Heavy 3, Blast, Barrage

Would you resolve it as a 'multiple barrage'? Or would you resolve it as a 'multiple blast' with the barrage exceptions?

DoW

The only other multishot barrage weapon I can think of is the Dark Reaper Exarch's Tempest Launcher.

I can see where the RAW issue lies - page 30, under "Multiple Blasts" states that if a unit is firing more than one blast weapon, then you resolve each shot one at a time. The rules simply don't cover what happens when you have a single weapon that fires multiple shots. I remember wondering about this when Apocalypse came out (and later when v5 came out), since it has tons of examples of weapons that fire multiple blasts.

Same thing with the Multiple Barrage rules on p32, which only deals with a "unit [that] has more than one barrage weapon". By RAW, there is no way to resolve a single barrage weapon that spits out multiple shots.

So, what happens? Do you resolve each barrage blast individually, even though there is no RAW reading for this? Do you resolve the barrage as per the Multiple Blast/Barrage rules, even though this has the same RAW problem? Or does the game just implode on itself since there is no RAW solution?

In an actual game it'd be down to the players. I'd play it exactly as DogOfWar suggests - that is, just assume that the Multiple Blast and Multiple Barrage rules apply to weapons that fire multiple shots as well.

Uhm, regarding the squisha, "Blast" is the size of 'plate and Barrage just indicates that it's death from above rather than in your face.

As I said, I don't have the rules handy but I know there a chapter somewhere dictating multiple blast according to DoW's option 2 and what I don't know is what it's referring to.

Also, Ordnance is automatically Large Blast, if I'm not mistaken, so multiple blast should refer to Large Blast/Ordnance as well


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm, lagging response...

Isn't there an Orc-can or something with a Heavy 2 Blast?

I would play each models shots according to DoW's option 2, regardless of direct/indirect fire.

If I had a squadron of 3 Manticores (I can't, but bear with me...) I would resolve them as 3 separarate D3 ordnance barrage, meaning I would use DoW's option 2 three times, each time placing D3 'plates. One full scatter for each manticore and then additional "small" scatters for the (now D3-1) extra blasts.

Likewise if I had a squadron of three basilisks I would resolve them as three separate shots with separate scatter, regardless of direct/indirect.

Right/wrong, I don't know but this makes the most sense to me.

It's an interesting dilemma.

My take is by RAW it couldn't possibly use the multiple barrage rules because it can't even satisfy the condition which is required to use that rule.

"If a unit has more than one barrage weapon"

And there you have it, a Manticore most certainly is not a unit with more than one barrage weapon, so it doesn't use that section of rules.

The basic shooting rules tell you what you need to know for a basic weapon that shoots more than once:

"To determine if firing models have hit their target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range"

and then all barrage weapons (including ordnance barrage weapons) use the blast rules for rolling to hit, which say:

"When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker... Roll the scatter dice and 2D6 to see where the shot lands"

so the blast rules replace the standard D6, but they don't say anything about rolling for each shot that's in range, thus a 2 shot blast weapon does the same scatter sequence twice to determine what is hit, and thus a single barrage weapon with multiple shots would be the same.


The bigger problem IMO would actually be if you had two models in a single unit each with a multiple shot barrage weapon.

DogOfWar wrote:Not quite sure what you're asking. This is how I believe most people interpret the Manticore's firing sequence (explained on P.58 BRB):

1) Determine if you are firing directly or indirectly
2) Roll D3 for number of blasts
3) If firing directly -
A) Place template such that it covers the maximum number of models
B) Disregard minimum range but check to see if you exceed maximum range (unlikely... but possible)
C) Roll 2D6-BS and scatter die for first blast
D) Resolve hits on scattered template
E) Repeat C and D as necessary until you have resolved all of your D3 blasts and tally the total number of hits
4) If firing indirectly -
A) Place template such that it covers the maximum number of models
B) Check both minimum and maximum range
C) Roll 2D6 (-BS if in sight, full 2D6 if not) and scatter die for first blast
D) Resolve hits on scattered template
E) For each additional blast, roll the scatter die and -
I) If a scatter is rolled, place a second template touching the first in the direction of the arrow.
II) If a hit is rolled, place the template anywhere provided it is touching the original template AND covers the maximum number of models
F) Tally the total number of hits
5) Roll to wound
6) Celebrate!

Okay so step 6 doesn't exist.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your confusion? What part of the procedure are you disagreeing with?

DoW

DoW has it spot on.

Ok, I know this is RAW and all, but it doesn't make sense.

Why would a multi-shot scatter LESS (in relation to the other shots) if it's fired way up into the air before detonating? Less precise targetting when firing directly, sure, I can buy that... But why then do we get to deduct BS, ehh...

And if Drunkspleen is to be believed, there shouldn't be a difference in direct/indirect since the multiple barrages rule can't come in effect, therefore all 'plates should be resolved individually. Regardless of firing method.

Cheexsta wrote:I can see where the RAW issue lies - page 30, under "Multiple Blasts" states that if a unit is firing more than one blast weapon, then you resolve each shot one at a time.

Exactly. So you can follow the chart DogofWar posted, but I do not think it is RaW.

Berglin - correct. The only difference (by RaW) between firing direct and indirect is that you do not subtract BS when barragin'

You do know that if you fire a Heavy 2, Blast Weapon, it follows the exact same process as firing 2 Heavy 1, Blast weapons?

Sure!

But if they are heavy 2 barrage or whatever, it is different than firing 2 heavy 1 barrage weapons.

Yeah, everybody knows that one weapon spreads it's payload way more than two independent weapons.

At least according to RAW.

The firers must be telepathically linked or something. :-P

Technically the single weapon has potential to be more acurate. You could hit the same spot with all three. With a unit of mortars for example it is impossible.

Dont get me wrong, I *want* the manticore to use the multiple barrage rules, especially since I play a lot of orks/vehicle squads/ packed deployments, etc. I just dont see it in the rules.

GMMStudios wrote:Technically the single weapon has potential to be more acurate. You could hit the same spot with all three. With a unit of mortars for example it is impossible.

I must be missing something.

On barrage shots after the first, a "hit" allows the blast markers to overlap - so you can place it exactly on top of any of the previous ones, or anywhere it touches another blast marker. You can hit spot on with all three.

Maybe mortars arent counted as a multiple barrage, is this what you mean?

I dunno I thought they were so I used it as an example, sorry if not :(

I agree with Gwar and DoW.

That's cool but can you justify it with rules?

I am not being pushy I would just like someone to prove scattering each blast is not RaW.

Gwar! wrote:You do know that if you fire a Heavy 2, Blast Weapon, it follows the exact same process as firing 2 Heavy 1, Blast weapons?

Sure, they happen to resolve the same way, but the rules don't actually say they inherently resolve the same way, it just so happens that with standard blast weapons it makes no difference how many weapons or how many shots are involved, they always resolve the same.

With barrage it's entirely different, because there is a special rule which kicks in only when a unit is firing more than 1 barrage weapon, so in the case of barrage, you do NOT resolve a single Heavy 2, Barrage weapon the same as two Heavy 1, Barrage weapons.

GMMStudios wrote:That's cool but can you justify it with rules?

I am not being pushy I would just like someone to prove scattering each blast is not RaW.

The fact of the matter is that there are no rules for firing a weapon with multiple blasts. Firing one weapon with multiple blasts is most intuitively done as firing multiples of the same type of weapon.

If you choose not to use that variant... well then your multiple blast weapon really just doesn't work at all.

By the "strictest RAW" the manticore does not function.

Correct, so the next logical RaW interpretation that isn't totally silly (it can't fire) is that it fires the same as direct.

willydstyle wrote:

GMMStudios wrote:That's cool but can you justify it with rules?

I am not being pushy I would just like someone to prove scattering each blast is not RaW.

The fact of the matter is that there are no rules for firing a weapon with multiple blasts. Firing one weapon with multiple blasts is most intuitively done as firing multiples of the same type of weapon.

If you choose not to use that variant... well then your multiple blast weapon really just doesn't work at all.

By the "strictest RAW" the manticore does not function.

Exactly. In my opinion it's the 'closest' you're going to get to playing rules that do actually exist. You have to make a logical leap either way to assume that the intention was for them use 'multiple blast' rules or 'multiple barrage' rules since, like Willydstyle said, there are no rules for a single model firing multiple shots of either blast or barrage (let alone both).

1) If the vehicle is firing a multiple blast weapon, I'd say it makes the most sense to resolve the shots the same way that a unit firing multiple blast weapons would.

2) If the vehicle is firing a multiple blast barrage weapon (indirectly, since directly should be treated the same way you would treat option 1), however, I'd say it makes more sense to use the multiple barrage rules (rather than just multiple blast) since the unique rules for firing barrage weaponry is accounted for.

If you follow the reasoning for option 1, then it makes sense to follow the reasoning for option 2. At least it does in my head anyway

DoW

willydstyle wrote:The fact of the matter is that there are no rules for firing a weapon with multiple blasts. Firing one weapon with multiple blasts is most intuitively done as firing multiples of the same type of weapon.

If you choose not to use that variant... well then your multiple blast weapon really just doesn't work at all.

By the "strictest RAW" the manticore does not function.

Except as I demonstrated, the core shooting rules tell you to resolve a single hit per shot, there's nothing under the melta rule telling you how to deal with an assault 2, melta weapon, but we know from the basic shooting rules that you resolve two shots, and the same goes for blast weapons, the rules only replace the D6 roll with a scatter roll and blast marker, there's no reason to suddenly not resolve each shot using those rules though. The rules adequately cover a single weapon firing multiple blasts.

There is absolutely no reason that you have to fall back on the rules for multiple blast weapons in a squad to resolve a single weapon firing multiple blasts, and as such, absolutely no reason to do so with a barrage weapon, which is even more explicit in telling you that you only follow those rules if you have more than one barrage weapon being fired by a single unit, which the Manticore most certainly does not.

GMM: Yes, mortars are barrage but the barrage rules allows for all markers to be placed on top of eachother. If you roll a hit on your subsequent scatters you're allowed to place the marker anywhere it so that it's either in contact with or overlaps the first marker.

Unless anyone comes up with a better explanation I think Drunkspleen has it right. Ruleswise it makes the most sense, but gutwise it feels horribly wrong. I can't shake the feeling that all 2+ *blast should use the barrage rules, but me wanting it doesn't make it so. (queue Picard...)

The only thing that does make sense is that is doesn't matter how you fire. You resolve the shots the same either way, and that's IMO a Good Thing since it keeps things simple.