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My daughter wanted to go to the local GW today to play 40K. I let her pick out a few of my CSM models that she liked and put together a list for her. The list included a Forgeworld KSons Dread with Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher. Now for the rule question...

On turn two she rolled a 1 for the Crazed effect - Fire Frenzy. Resolving the Plasma Cannon was a no-brainer, but how should the Missile Launcher be resolved ? Given the exact circumstance the closest unit happened to be a unit ( friendly ) Thousand Sons. For simplicity we treated it as one Krak shot and one Frag shot.

But how should it be resolved... any FAQ elsewhere on this particular subject ?

If the closest target was a Vehicle would it respond accordingly - Krak Missile ?
If the closest target was a Open Topped Vehicle would it respond accordingly - Frag Missile for VtB ?
If the target was ... yada ... yada... yada... ?

Basically, does a Crazed Dreadnought have enough "know how" to fire the appropriate type of missile at a given target, or should this be handled as a simple 1-3 = Krak or 4-6 = Frag ?

The Dreadnought owner picks the type to shoot. So she could have decided to fire 2 Frag Missile at a Land Raider if she wanted.

They call it Crazed for a reason

It would actually be neither, the crazed rules don't take away the choice of which ammo to fire from the controlling player, it merely forces the dreadnought to fire on a certain unit.

So as the chaos player, you would be entirely within your rights to fire a frag missile at your vehicles, and could choose between a frag or krak missile against infantry based on whether you want to risk the extra hits from a frag missile in exchange for a lower wound chance and getting to take your save.

odds of death for MEQ from

frag ... roughly hits 3 per shot odds of killing 1/6 so 50% chance one dies
Krak ... odds (including hitting this time) 10/18 so 55.5% chance of killing one.
Krak ... odds vs Thousand sons 4+ 10/36 so only 27.7% chance of killing one

As mentioned you can only kill one with each Krak but you could kill every one under the blast with bad rolls. Ether way fire-frenzys likely to kill off at least one model.

edit to add odds for thousand sons ... Krak every time against them. much much better odds.

Does the above take into account saves?

Well, lets break it down

Frag:
6 Hits (2*3)
3 Wounds (4+)
2 Save, 1 Dies.

Krak
2 Hits
1.66 Wounds.
1.66 Die.

However remember that with frag the POSSIBLE Deaths are 0-6, while with Krak they are 0-2.

Gwar! wrote:Well, lets break it down

Frag:
6 Hits (2*3)
3 Wounds (4+)
2 Save, 1 Dies.

Krak
2 Hits
1.66 Wounds.
1.66 Die.

However remember that with frag the POSSIBLE Deaths are 0-6, while with Krak they are 0-2.

Gwar i think you for got to roll to hit with the kraks 4/6 so shouldn't that be

2 shots, 1.3r hit, 1.1wound ... one dies

GMMStudios wrote:Does the above take into account saves?

yes saves were taken into acount

Woops, yes I forgot to Roll to hit

Still, It's safer to take the Krak IMO. 0-2 dead is better than 0-6 dead

Woops, yes I forgot to Roll to hit

Still, It's safer to take the Krak IMO. 0-2 dead is better than 0-6 dead

Gwar! wrote:Woops, yes I forgot to Roll to hit

Still, It's safer to take the Krak IMO. 0-2 dead is better than 0-6 dead

much safer when they're in cover.

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Woops, yes I forgot to Roll to hit

Still, It's safer to take the Krak IMO. 0-2 dead is better than 0-6 dead

much safer when they're in cover.

Or when the models are Thousand Sons, like the OP said

Cover doesn't matter. He had Thousand Sons.

4+ inv is good (would mean half a kill with 2 krak missile ... i had missed that it was Thousand sons I've corrected my original workings) but since they're S&P there's no reason not to try for a cover save when there are bits of 3+ and even 2+ cover on a board.

They would still the their 4++ Invul save, so yes krack would be the better pick, in this case.

Tri wrote:4+ inv is good (would mean half a kill with 2 krak missile ... i had missed that it was Thousand sons I've corrected my original workings) but since they're S&P there's no reason not to try for a cover save when there are bits of 3+ and even 2+ cover on a board.

Huh.... 3+ is only for purpose-built fortifications, and according to the rulebook 2+ cover doesn't really exist.

willydstyle wrote:

Tri wrote:4+ inv is good (would mean half a kill with 2 krak missile ... i had missed that it was Thousand sons I've corrected my original workings) but since they're S&P there's no reason not to try for a cover save when there are bits of 3+ and even 2+ cover on a board.

Huh.... 3+ is only for purpose-built fortifications, and according to the rulebook 2+ cover doesn't really exist.

2+ STOCK cover doesn't exist. 2+ cover because of mods is easily possible, hell, even Going to Ground in a 3+ Cover = 2+

True that. Also because Going-to-ground in 4+ cover (I.E. most cover types) is a 3+ save cover is not completely useless for thousand sons.

However, I usually don't play with any 3+ cover. I wonder if the same is true for most players?

I find it to be (woefully) rare.

willydstyle wrote:"...However, I usually don't play with any 3+ cover. I wonder if the same is true for most players?.."

Eldar Pathfinders FTW !

Oh, I get 3+ cover saves often enough. . .

But it is rare that the terrain itself causes this without help.

Which is, I think, what he was asking.

Yeah, I saw it that way too.

Also Scouts with Camo Cloaks in a Reinforced Ruin.

2+ Cover save and you can still shoot

oh well we've lots of bunkers and general planet strike stuff here. 3+ saves are still rare but you see at least 1-2 bits of it on each map. 2+ cover does need a rule to happen but thank fully there are thing's like "Bolster Defence" .... sure there's a quote from some General about using an enemy's strengths against them