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1. Can you target units in combat with "blast" area of effect weapons?
2. If not, and the scatter ends up with the template over the unit, what happens? (just whatever figure is under the blast gets hit I presume?)
3. Any difference for flamers?

1. No.
2. You are correct - resolve hits versus models covered.
3. No.

No, you may NEVER target a unit in CC unless specifically stated otherwise (see vindicare assasin)

As long as they weren't the target just resolve hits as they are. Friend & Foe alike.

Aside from not scattering, no.

kirsanth wrote:1. No.
2. You are correct - resolve hits versus models covered.
3. No.

kirsanth is correct, so sayeth the Gwar!

kirsanth wrote:2. You are correct - resolve hits versus models covered.

I'm not sure I agree.

Sadly I'm at work and don't have my books to hand, but I'm sure blast template wounds are resolved just like standard fire wounds to a squad, aren't they? I.e., the controlling player of the 'victim' unit assigns wounds as he sees fit. So, even if your scattered blast template scattered over a heavy weapon team in squad in combat for example, your opponent could still just remove a standard guardsman.

Unless I'm completely and hopelessly mistaken of course, as I said, I don't have my books with me

Tantras wrote:

kirsanth wrote:2. You are correct - resolve hits versus models covered.

I'm not sure I agree.

Sadly I'm at work and don't have my books to hand, but I'm sure blast template wounds are resolved just like standard fire wounds to a squad, aren't they? I.e., the controlling player of the 'victim' unit assigns wounds as he sees fit. So, even if your scattered blast template scattered over a heavy weapon team in squad in combat for example, your opponent could still just remove a standard guardsman.

Unless I'm completely and hopelessly mistaken of course, as I said, I don't have my books with me

In 4th ed this was the case (whatever's under the blast template takes the wounds) but now they can be allocated to anyone in the same squad.

1. No.
2. You are correct - resolve hits versus models covered.
3. No.

Short ... sweet ... just the way I like it.

Ta very much chuck

I think what he meant was that you determine the number of hits by seeing who’s covered, regardless whether friend or foe.

As noted, in 5th ed (and 4th, IIRC; 3rd was the edition that required taking the models actually covered), while the models covered determine how many hits are suffered, the owning player still chooses which to remove as casualties, like usual.

True.

"Resolve the number of hits based upon the number models covered in each unit"

So I want to take this a bit further... if you don't mind me hijacking your thread a tad. We have play template weapons (flamers specifically) as you cannot target squads locked up into melee. However, we have created situations where models in melee were between the firer and the actual target of the flamer. I wanted to know if the template can be fired at a squad that is not in melee, even if the tail of the template falls over a squad that is in melee; think of it like a blast scattering over a unit in CC. It was not the initial target, but the template just fell that way. So far we have not allowed this, but I wanted to know what everyone else thought.

Lt Lathrop wrote:So I want to take this a bit further... if you don't mind me hijacking your thread a tad. We have play template weapons (flamers specifically) as you cannot target squads locked up into melee. However, we have created situations where models in melee were between the firer and the actual target of the flamer. I wanted to know if the template can be fired at a squad that is not in melee, even if the tail of the template falls over a squad that is in melee; think of it like a blast scattering over a unit in CC. It was not the initial target, but the template just fell that way. So far we have not allowed this, but I wanted to know what everyone else thought.

I'd allow it, as long as at no point did you touch one of your own models in the same melee.

Hmm, actually, melee is supposed to be a swirling mass of bodies, friend and foe alike, maybe it would be simpler to disallow it on the basis that you would likely hit an ally.

Yes, the second one... I think...

Interesting, the current rules do not have any prohibition on targeting enemy models locked in combat with a flamer.

However, that squad could not be the declared target of your shooting and you must cover "as many models as possible in the target unit" (emphasis mine) so it's not going to be useful very often.

Their is a prohibition from targeting a unit in CC with ranged weapons.

How far could you go with this though?

Picture Guardsman Marbo with his mighty demolition charge - he nominates the Chaos Rhino on the other side of the battlefield to throw at, but he can't quite reach. But wait, it turned out quite well! It's not his fault he could only throw it as far as the squad of Khorne Beserkers in front of him who were thrashing his mates badly...

Tantras wrote:How far could you go with this though?

Picture Guardsman Marbo with his mighty demolition charge - he nominates the Chaos Rhino on the other side of the battlefield to throw at, but he can't quite reach. But wait, it turned out quite well! It's not his fault he could only throw it as far as the squad of Khorne Beserkers in front of him who were thrashing his mates badly...

if the rhino is out of his range, he wouldn't be able to fire the demo charge that round at all.

Fizzywig wrote:

Tantras wrote:How far could you go with this though?

Picture Guardsman Marbo with his mighty demolition charge - he nominates the Chaos Rhino on the other side of the battlefield to throw at, but he can't quite reach. But wait, it turned out quite well! It's not his fault he could only throw it as far as the squad of Khorne Beserkers in front of him who were thrashing his mates badly...

if the rhino is out of his range, he wouldn't be able to fire the demo charge that round at all.

no he would be able to fire it ... but if out of range its an auto miss.

Scott-S6 wrote:Interesting, the current rules do not have any prohibition on targeting enemy models locked in combat with a flamer.

However, that squad could not be the declared target of your shooting and you must cover "as many models as possible in the target unit" (emphasis mine) so it's not going to be useful very often.

Page 40 says that templates and blast can not be deliberately set over any models in CC.

quick follow up - so we agree that you cannot deliberately target troops in CC with a template or blast marker.

However, if a blast does deviate on top of your opponent and causes enough wounds to cause a leadership check which they then fail, what happens then?

bluedevil27 wrote:quick follow up - so we agree that you cannot deliberately target troops in CC with a template or blast marker.

However, if a blast does deviate on top of your opponent and causes enough wounds to cause a leadership check which they then fail, what happens then?

Models locked in Close Combat do not take the test for 25% casualties.

Page 44, BRB

bluedevil27 wrote:quick follow up - so we agree that you cannot deliberately target troops in CC with a template or blast marker.

However, if a blast does deviate on top of your opponent and causes enough wounds to cause a leadership check which they then fail, what happens then?

Nothing. The situation will never arise.

BGB pg 44 wrote: A unit that is locked in close combat does not have to take Morale checks for taking 25% casualties.

caddock wrote:
Page 40 says that templates and blast can not be deliberately set over any models in CC.

"While blast markers and templates may not be
deliberately placed such that they cover any models
locked in combat, they may end up there after
scattering and will then hit any models they touch
(friends and foes!)."
I had always assumed this meant that, since they cannot scatter and are always deliberately placed, most templates could not be placed so that they affect units locked in assault.

However, we have created situations where models in melee were between the firer and the actual target of the flamer

Would there not be LOS issues here?

Yes, you cannot, ever, place a template such that it covers models in combat OR friendly models. IT makes no difference whether or not the combat is your target or not you can NEVER place it. Sorry, no burning the combat "by accident" - the only way to hit things in combat, following the usual targetting rules, is to have a scattering blast or template - lots of th former, cant think of any of the latter that isn't Apocalypse.

If I fire a flamer over the top of a melee to hit a squad behind it, I didn't deliberately place the template on the squads in CC. I was trying to hit the guys in back, and I was trying to cover as many models in that squad as I could. It is just a shame that the back half of the template landed on the CC.

To me the very fact that templates were mentioned in the scatter "oops" rule means that there are situations where templates could wound someone in CC, and thus needed to be included in the "who takes the wounds" clarification in the rule.

Lt Lathrop wrote:If I fire a flamer over the top of a melee to hit a squad behind it, I didn't deliberately place the template on the squads in CC. I was trying to hit the guys in back, and I was trying to cover as many models in that squad as I could. It is just a shame that the back half of the template landed on the CC.

Did you deliberatly place the template so that it covered models locked in combat before scattering (which it can't do)? Yes?
Then it's an invalid placement. It's that simple.

Any placement that covers locked models is simply an invalid choice, it doesn't matter how many models of the target unit you cover. Just like how you wouldn't automatically template half your squad if it would score you an extra hit on the target... you cover as many as you can with a valid placement choice.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:No, you may NEVER target a unit in CC unless specifically stated otherwise (see vindicare assasin)

As long as they weren't the target just resolve hits as they are. Friend & Foe alike.

Aside from not scattering, no.

Its a shame as well, the last game i played there was a full squad of tactical marines in melee with a full squad of greyhunters
close to the size of a large blast temp in a free for all game, such a tasty target for a basalisk.

Ennkay wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:No, you may NEVER target a unit in CC unless specifically stated otherwise (see vindicare assasin)

As long as they weren't the target just resolve hits as they are. Friend & Foe alike.

Aside from not scattering, no.

Its a shame as well, the last game i played there was a full squad of tactical marines in melee with a full squad of greyhunters
close to the size of a large blast temp in a free for all game, such a tasty target for a basalisk.

Free-for-all games can follow different rules. I think if you have the big rulebook it even covers rules for firing into CC in a "free-for-all" not sure which page though.

Page 273.