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So, I'm finally getting into WHFB and decided to start a WoC army, mainly because I got sick of playing with Empire infantry and decided I wanted a rock hard battle line. I had some limited success at two tournaments (4-2, Best General award based on total battle points for one of them) with an infantry/magic heavy list that included Villitch, two level two Tzeentch sorcerors, three blocks of 18 Chaos Warriors (2 Nurgle, 1 Slannesh), 1 Tzeentch War Shrine, two Slannesh chariots and a Khorne Spawn. The list did ok, losing to Tzeentch demons and mixed demons, but massacre victories against Slannesh demons, Vampire Counts, shooty High Elves, and Beasts of Chaos.

Thinking it over, I want to add a little speed and some more bodies into my army. I had a couple of good terrain situations to take advantage of, otherwise I don't think it would have been nearly as successful. I was always able to find suitable terrain to anchor the infantry flank against to take away opponents speed or channel them down so that my elite blocks could fight only one enemy at a time. I need something that will help perform on more open boards.

What units would you include to add speed and bodies? What hero combos would you recommend adding/dropping? All help appreaciated.

Dropping all of your units from 18 to 12 will give you the points to take a unit of knights and a couple blocks of marauder horse.

Thats basically the only options besides dragons you have for speedy combat.

Cypher, do you recommend units of 12 chaos warriors?

In my experience, depending on dice rolls to win the combat just isn't that reliable. When I have only a rank bonus and a banner versus someone with 3 ranks, banner and numbers, it seems I rarely win combat by enough to have good odds of making them run. And if they have special rules [ward save, stubborn, ASF, hatred, killing blow, regeneration etc etc] then I'm usually massacred.

I generally go for large blocks of warriors so that I'm on equal footing with the enemy, and then it just comes down to who's a better fighter - which chaos usually wins. Seriously, though, 12? With what, halberds? Without hatred or something my rolls are just not reliable enough to hurt the enemy. Think if I use hw/shield I'll have like 12 attacks, 8 hit, 5 wound, enemy makes 5+ saves, 3 die. That's a draw, right there, and my unit's likely costing more.

I tend to agree. Anything less than 3 full ranks (for the +2 bonus) seems like your handicapping yourself too much as a WoC player. I have considered dropping a hero choice to free up points and possibly running two blocks of Chaos Warriors with two blocks of marauders. Is that a decent infantry core or are marauders too weak?

12 warriors with full command will beat most units in a straight up fight (take shields)

you are paying an arm and a leg for that rank. So much so that the enemy will usually have another unit to face you with (on the flank).

Most units win by either having lots of static combat res or lots of kills in combat. Having both makes the unit very expensive and usually not worth it in my opinion.

Really, is 80-90 points worth the +1 to combat res? Are you losing all your combats by 1?
Or could you use that extra unit more?

I say take 3 units of 12 warriors each and spend the extra points on mauraders or another block of 12 warriors and spend the rest of the points on upgrades or get some cavelry.

Play MSU(multiple small units with this build although 12 is hardly small) the principle is that whan your charge or get charged by an opponent, you will have a unit that is hitting his front while you have another unit(which may be smaller than the first one) or two charging his flanks. If your warriors are charging in his flank you will win, and you are chaos, you can stand toe to toe in the front. in the flank or rear you will almost always win. SCR be

This is how we Ogres win battle since we don't have static combat res

Chaos warriors just cost too many points. If you go with a small block, almost ANY cavalry unit will break you easily on the charge. You'll either be using shields and have a 5+ or less save and still die while being only S4 to try to break their heavy armour, or you'll go with more damaging weapons like halberds or greatweapons and just horribly die.

There's enough cavalry units that are either S6 on the charge or S5 with multiple attacks that chaos warriors' T4 is just pointless. At S6, they might as well be T2 zombies, and if they use any weapons but hw/shield, they will be exactly that, only with WS5. Since you need to be WS2 to hit WS5 on a 5+, having WS5 is pretty much the same as having WS2-6 against anything less. You hit it better, but you don't really prevent them from hitting you. Sure, they'll hit on 4+ but their wounds are deadly, and if they have something like hatred, then they REALLY start to rack up the damage.

Chaos has a lack of special rules like stubborn, hatred etc. that help them. Units with weaker stats end up outshining them due to these special rules. Black Guard may be S3 T3 and have only heavy armour, but they can get ASF easily, they're Ld 9 [higher than chaos warriors], stubborn, and always re-roll misses. They can easily go toe to toe with chaos warriors and cost less. Easy synergy with something like a Cauldron of Blood makes them either way more deadly or more resilient, and you can choose which. Chaos has to depend on warshrines, which are less deadly and easier to kill, depending on the weapon [since unless you hit the crew, the cauldron ignores all damage].

I think, at least, I guess, the idea is that you buy big blocks of marauders for the static combat res, with maybe a hero in them to cause damage [and hope he doesn't die - someone with 2 attacks with a lance and hatred can easily kill most chaos hero-level characters], and hope that you win or lose by little enough to be able to pass Ld, giving your other units a chance to charge in the flank. I hate the idea of chaos warriors depending on blocks of crap to be successful, though. While being a 1-man stomper force would be overpowered and no fun, not being able to really have an all-chaos warrior force is kind of annoying.

Alright, time for some numbers...

Black guard vs warriors
Black guard swing 14 times (7 wide), hit 10.5 (after reroll)
Black guard wound 5.25 times
Warriors fail 1.75 armor saves

Warriors swing 9 times (we will give that partially dead guy one attack)
hit 4.5 times
wound 3 times
Black guard fail 2.5 saves

Warriors win

In reality it will be a grind to oblivion. This assumes that either the black guard have the ASF or they charge the first round. Otherwise they are grass.


Khorn dogs charge warriors
Dogs hit 6 times (6 wide)
wound 4 times
warriors fail 2 saves

warrios attack 8 times, hit 4 times, wound 2 times, dogs fail 1.3 saves.
After this initial round the warriors superior iniative kicks in
warriors attack 12 times, hit 6, wound 3, dogs fail 2 saves

Now the dogs are down and will quickly be destroyed (takes 3-4 rounds).


Warriors of chaos are not scrubs. They are incredibly tough and strong for their points. Their weakness is slow movement and lack of combat res (or expensive combat res). The unit i proposed, 12 guys with full cmd, costs a little over 200 pts and has +2 combat res. This unit will hold against almost any normal unit you see in a regular game (baring characters).


And remember, cauldron crew is T3, warshrine is T6. That helps ALOT.

But crew are hit 1/3 of the time, and will never really be affected by something like a boltthrower or cannon nearly as badly.

In your analysis, the black guard killed essentially 2. The warriors kill on average 3. Since the black guard outnumber, they will tie the first round. It matters little though - the black guard are stubborn and more likely to stick around. If the chaos warriors ever lose combat, they stand a good chance of breaking and running.

That aside though, we all know we can't go by the odds. There's statistics involved, yes, but what the black guard have over chaos warriors is insurance. If the chaos warriors charge and get 2 hits, they're toast. Fried, never even stand a chance. If the black guard hit twice, they have a second chance, an opportunity to change the outcome.

Chaos pays for high stats, and when you never hit better than a 3 regardless of WS, and never wound better than a 2, having S6 greatweapons or WS8 to 3 doesn't really amount for much. And WS5 only gets harder to hit if you're WS2. Chaos pays a ton of points for these high stats, when I'd gladly take lower ones that get re-rolls. Better odds, hands down.

Ok, so what about something like this for a MSU build?

Sorcer Lord, LVL 4, MoT, Power Familiar, Dispel Scroll, Collar of Khorne

Exalted Hero, MoN, Shield, Warhorse, Chaos Runesword

12 Warriors, MoN, Banner of Rage, Full Command

12 Warriors, MoS, Full Command

12 Warriors, MoS, Raptorous Standard, Full Command

25 Marauders, MoS, Great Swords, Full Command

25 Marauders, MoS, Great Swords, Full Command

Chariot, MoS

Chariot, MoS

6 Knights, MoN, War Banner, Full Command

It has 9 drops with Characters and the Chariots are great line breakers when used in tandem. The hero plus knights looks pretty choppy on paper. My only concern is the durability of the warrior blocks. And my magic defense is a little light now with only 4 dice and 1 scroll...at least compared to what I'm used to having.

The only problem would be those stupid HE or DE armies with multi RBT and units of archers reap Xbows.

Knights.

Chaos Knights are the most powerful unit in the Chaos arsenal. Don't be afraid to give them frenzy, just use a six-wide rank of hounds to screen potential charges.

I have had many games look like complete losses until I flank charge with a unit of knights and run through their entire line. Just have a plan set up ahead of time and learn how to get the turn three flank charge set up just right. If you are determined to win, and cheesiness is not a factor, you should have a unit of knights with MoN and BoR.

Speaking of MoN. If you know you will be facing a lot of WS3 enemies, throw MoN on your infantry. What happens when WS3 becomes WS2 vs your Warriors? Why, yes you just reduced your potential losses significantly. Now you are returning more attacks after getting charged and greatly increasing your chance at winning combat.

Speaking of which, Chaos Warriors should not be overrunning opponents. You need to keep your opponent tied up in combat in the middle of the field until you flank with another unit. However, I would still recommend more ranks because if you are carrying a banner you do NOT want to break.

Yeah, S6 on the charge hurts pretty bad, but even a Brettonian charge can be stopped by a unit of Nurlge bearing Warriors with decent static res. Unless he has a special character he is looking at 8 S6 attacks on the charge, but hitting on 5 reduces your potential losses to just one or two warriors.

For that list specifically:

Banner of Rage on your knights

Drop one unit of Marauders and one unit of warriors and bring in another unit of knights

A Warshrine would really help round your list off. I recommend replacing one of the chariots with it if you can.

Take another look at your Hero. The Chaos Runesword is overcosted IMO. You will be hitting most anything on threes, really, and even 1 WS will not make most enemy characters hit you on 5 (that were not already.) Also, the Collar of Knorne is ok, but not something I would bring in that list.

In any case, have fun!

Well, your knights will be shot a fairly large amount. However the more powerful armies out there have no shooting so that isn't a huge issue.

I wouldn't take anything with frenzy in a MSU army. To many opportunities for them to screw with your battle plan, and you need it to be reliable.

Great weapons on 25 man blocks are kind of useless. Light armor and shields for the big blocks, great weapons for the small. So either change the weapons or make it 5 blocks (no command at that point).
If you do go the 5 block approach I would drop 2 of them and get as many dogs as you can. They are usefull in any chaos army.

Give your exaulted a banner and give your sorc a horse. They are just useful things to have around. The chars should run with the foot guys. Knights don't need em.

I personally would drop the chariots for another knight unit but that is just me. Chariots work great with warriors as they can quickly free up any units stuck in combat and combo charge into stuff.

cypher wrote:
I personally would drop the chariots for another knight unit but that is just me. Chariots work great with warriors as they can quickly free up any units stuck in combat and combo charge into stuff.

I agree that chariots are a matter of taste. Is it true that impact hits happen before ASF unit attacks? I heard that someplace, but I don't have the book on hand to confirm. If that is the case, that is pretty slick.

Yes, Impact hits go before all other attacks.

That's how ogres kill elves. we bull charge and kill a few in the first rank, few survivors strike back, most ogres survive then shove the elve's hind ends down their throats and they turn tail and run like the panzies they are