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Let's analyze these SM armies:

Black Templars
Blood Angels
Space Wolves

Let's compare them to Khornate daemon armies (KDA). Let's assume there is no Fateweaver thrown into the KDA. KDA will consist of the following units:

Bloodthirster(s)
Heralds
Blood Crushers
Bloodletters
Khornate daemon princes
Soul Grinders (phleghm and/or tongue)

What are the best builds and units available to beat KDA? You can go so far as to propose an entire army list, especially if you have had success beating KDA. Also if you feel you've got a good vanilla SM list that is primarily built for close combat those are fine to discuss as well.

I have recently switched over from BA to a KDA. However I have not fought a pure KDA while I was playing my BA.

G

I play primarily Vanilla Marines and I don't think they have a very good assault answer to KDA. Their strength lies in Null Zone + Shooting. Deamonic Troops hate Thunderfire Cannons within Null Zone range. Khornate Deamons can't bounce Null Zone because it doesn't cause a wound.

Blood Angels, I think, are the weakest against KDA. They don't have access to any counters to Khorne Deamons and they can easily be out assaulted.

Black Templars I will leave to others to discuss.

Space Wolves can tackle Khorne Deamons rather well. Jaws works on all their models because it doesn't cause wounds. Disposable units like Lone Wolves get re-rolls against most of their heavy hitters. Most SW armies I have seen have Long Fangs that can pelt lesser deamons with wounds. Characters like Logan Grimnar and Ragnar, can bring alot of attacks to bear in addition to prefered enemy.

The biggest thorn in all the armies side are the Blood Crushers, so Marines best bet is to "manage" them. Keep them tied up is pointless combats against armored targets.

I think there is a fallacy in the thinking that Crushers cannot damage walkers in assault. The best counter is a mounted herald with unholy might and fury...

S7 on the charge + 6 (rending) + d3

Will at worst glance and pen 2/3 of the time. A smart KDA player will use the Bloodthirster or a Khornate daemon prince to intercept walkers before they can engage the Crushers. Also Grinders can be upgraded with a mini range railgun that does a number on AV12.

G

Jump packs & bikes. Units with these can engage KDA units on the turn they jump down to deny all the bonuses Khorne (Any assault unit) gets from charging. If the range is longer than this, your own heavy weapons can have a whole turn or two at shooting the heavy hitters whilst your own assault units get into position.

Khorne has very little shooting potential and equipping princes to shoot is costly and soul grinders generally just have to be dealt with/put up with; Being only BS3 they are not an amazing threat.

I have to disagree with the comment regarding Soul Grinders' shooting. The large blast template can be devastating versus power armor. People say the mini railgun is not thst great due to BS3 but if you take two Grinders that is one shot per turn that hits... they are awesome versus rhinos, razorbacks and chimeras.

G

In general, I think assault oriented Marine armies need to cede control of the assault phase to the KDA and excel in the shooting phase against them. The KDA specializes in assault. Its the thing they do best. Marines will never beat a KDA by trying to beat them in every assault phase, especially when fighting KDA elite units (Crushers, Thirsters, DPs). Therefore, Marine armies must control the conditions and tempo of the assaults that do occur! Remember, even the choppiest SM list still has BS4 across the board except for on a few select units. This means that a well balanced, assault oriented Marine list should be able to shape the conditions under which they fight KDA units in assault through a combination of high ROF shooting and maneuver.

For Blood Angels, I think the Baal Predator could pay immense dividends. Twin-linked assault cannons plus HB sponsons should put a hurt on a unit of blood letters and do decent damage to a unit of crushers. Landspeeders with the old HB/AC built that can quickly redeploy to fire on demon units prepping an assault are also good here. Combined with flamers in tactical and assault squads, the two units above should help reduce the KDA numbers so that a BA assault has numbers in its favor and faces minimal return attacks. In this case, 4 ML devestators should also be a good supporting unit that can successfully engage grinders, DPs, Thirsters, and mass infantry. Dreadnoughts are ok, but lose their edge against KDA. However, a dreadnought with dual heavy flamers and DCCW could do ok as a counter-charge/support unit to the BA infantry.

Been a long time since I played against BT and haven't really studied the new SW dex yet but I think the same general strategy can be applied to let them shape assaults in their favor.

That is well thought out response.

G

I have to disagree with the comment regarding Soul Grinders' shooting. The large blast template can be devastating versus power armor. People say the mini railgun is not thst great due to BS3 but if you take two Grinders that is one shot per turn that hits... they are awesome versus rhinos, razorbacks and chimeras.

The question is not only their shooting ability, but any Marine army has plenty of mobile MM that can easily handle a Soul Grinder that gets in range of a tank. Last time I faced Deamons (it wasn't pure Khorne, but it did have Blood Thirsters, Sould Grinders, and Blood Crushers), I had no Problem popping Soul Grinders with my Vulkan list between deep striking MM Speeders and the MMs on the Land Raiders.

So I would wager you get one round of shooting before you start taking damage which forces you to deal with tanks in the assault phase. Blood Crushers can barely handle AV 12, even with the herald (though I will concede Skulltaker on a Juggernaut on the charge that rends on a 4+ has a better chance).

In general, I think assault oriented Marine armies need to cede control of the assault phase to the KDA and excel in the shooting phase against them. The KDA specializes in assault. Its the thing they do best. Marines will never beat a KDA by trying to beat them in every assault phase, especially when fighting KDA elite units (Crushers, Thirsters, DPs). Therefore, Marine armies must control the conditions and tempo of the assaults that do occur! Remember, even the choppiest SM list still has BS4 across the board except for on a few select units. This means that a well balanced, assault oriented Marine list should be able to shape the conditions under which they fight KDA units in assault through a combination of high ROF shooting and maneuver.

That is exactly true, and what was being argued is that most Assault Marine lists (in the case of the previous thread BT) contanins elements that statistically speaking mean that they will be able to get the charge more often then the KDA list.

It just comes down to target priority on the SM players front. If the Space Marine player can shut down the Soul Grinders and any Blood Thirster you may have with their shooting and/or CC, they can handle the rest of the game because they can maintain better control of the board. A BT player will gladly charge a Blood Thirster with FC Assault Terminators to eliminate a threat to the Land Raiders. Considering that the squad gets re-rolls to hit and wound with Lightning Claws, and re-rolls to hit with str. 9 thunder hammers, as long as a few wound are put on the Thirster first, they can handle that combat. Even if they loose a few, they have already accomplished their goal. BT tend to have multiple assault elements (command squads, crusader squads, Terminators) to where if they "sacrifice a unit" to take something down, they still have some punch left in reserve. A full 8 Men BT Assault Terminator Squad w/ 4 TH/SS, and 4 LCs, can handle taking down a Blood Thirster and absorbing a charge by Blood Crushers. Letting them counter charge with other elements if necessary.

It can all come down to setting up the game like Chinese checkers or even chess... each opponent sacrifices a piece to destroy another in return. You can deploy Soul Grinders in such a way to block off landspeeders from getting off a shot at 1/2 range and also go with use intervening terrain for the cover save. It is variable due to the scatter but cant be discounted. I will say that mentioning the landspeeder tends to be a distraction to the intent of this thread. Sure all the SM armies listed here have access to them but Id like to keep the discussion on topic and not devolve into discussions on how to defeat KDA via shooting. That said I think a landspeeder or two would be a strong choice versus KDA as typically only the Bloodthirster and winged daemon princes would have a good chance at running them down. Note also that I have been playing around with the Death Strike gift, which also helps to deal with lightly armored skimmers such as landspeeders.

G

Okay, I can finally respond since work is done kicking my azz. LOL.

I will address these points first:

think there is a fallacy in the thinking that Crushers cannot damage walkers in assault. The best counter is a mounted herald with unholy might and fury...

S7 on the charge + 6 (rending) + d3

I think I already proved this point inaccurate. Firstly, nobody is saying it can't be done, but it is unlikely and you only really have a better chance of killing the dread assuming you charge.

Heralds have 4 attacks on the charge will net you about 2-3 hits and one possibly two pens. You then have a 33% chance to kill the dread per pen. Even against a normal dread not completely a definitive kill. It gets worse if it's a venerable dread as I can force those two results to be rerolled. You now have about a 30-33% chance to kill it. That is assuming you are charging...something very difficult to do since I will always have the first chance to react to your deployment given how daemons enter play. Take away your charge, and I charge you, you now have 3 attacks at Str 6, one of which may pen, then you are at the same position as before. Not good odds to kill it. It is possible, but not very likely. Something that anyone with a dread can use to their knowledge. Crushers can't effectively deal with dreads. For vanilla marines Iron Clads completely shut crushers down...rending or not..crushers will be stuck for a while. If an opponent can take crushers out of the game for 1-2 turns...that means they have 1-2 turns to deal with the rest of your army. It also means that you have nearly 350-400pts worth of models stuck doing nothing.

Will at worst glance and pen 2/3 of the time. A smart KDA player will use the Bloodthirster or a Khornate daemon prince to intercept walkers before they can engage the Crushers.

Again, you are assuming those units will be afforded that opportunity. BT units mounted in LRC's have a 20-22" threat range. If I can move centrally on the board I have about 40" of area covered in all directions. Anywhere you place those units within that bubble I can reach out and hit. Just so we are clear on this here is the effective output of damage that 8 BT assault terminators with 4LCs and 4TH/SS can do to a thirster:

16 attacks on the charge...conservatively, about 8-9 will hit due to re-rolls. 3-4 wounds will be caused..of which you'll save 50%. I've caused between 1.5-2 wounds. Thirster swings simo, hitting with 5 attacks..lets say he hits 4 times...and wounds 3 times. I allocate 1 to the LC and 2 the SS guys and bounce half those wounds. The TH's swing and land 3-4 blows due to re-rolls. That's 2 wounds he'll likely be taking and possibly falling this round of combat. Next round of combat he's swinging at init 1 and the unit will definitely be taking him down the following round. In my experience though those combats are rather one sided since a thirster is almost always being shot at before any assaults would happen with other units. BT command squads can pull a similar maneuver which can put up more attacks, but suffer from lack of lots of weapons that ignore armor. However, I have actually killed thirsters with both with no problems.

Also Grinders can be upgraded with a mini range railgun that does a number on AV12.

If you are shooting AV12 targets that means my AV14 stays on the table longer. Grinders aren't that big of a threat and if they are shooting they aren't fleeting. I'll take the shooting as it's far less effective than if it charges in a combat.

In general, I think assault oriented Marine armies need to cede control of the assault phase to the KDA and excel in the shooting phase against them. The KDA specializes in assault. Its the thing they do best. Marines will never beat a KDA by trying to beat them in every assault phase, especially when fighting KDA elite units (Crushers, Thirsters, DPs).

I agree with this to a point. Using the assault phase smartly allows the marine player the ability to remove as many models as possible in one turn. In my experience, the faster you can scoop daemon units off the field, the greater your chances of winning are. Sometimes loosing a unit to kill another unit is worth it. I'd gladly trade my command squads or termies for a thirster or to eliminate other big threats to my army if it means the other portions of my army can finish the job.

Therefore, Marine armies must control the conditions and tempo of the assaults that do occur!

You are correct and I would argue BT armies do that best since they can bring the proper mobility needed, but also have some of the best CC available to a marine army. As a templar player it is always in my best interest to control where and when assaults occur.

Remember, even the choppiest SM list still has BS4 across the board except for on a few select units.

Exactly. Shooting is required in the formula for success.

This means that a well balanced, assault oriented Marine list should be able to shape the conditions under which they fight KDA units in assault through a combination of high ROF shooting and maneuver.

Agreed. That is why mobile move and shoot transports and dreads work best vs. KDA armies...and why KDA armies have trouble vs. those types of builds. Mixed daemon armies are better prepared to handle mech better.

From my experience vs. daemons, the all khornate list doesn't concern my Templars as much as a mixed daemon force does. Khorne is slow, and predictable in what they need to do to win. Taking out their lynch pin units is so much easier IMHO. Though YMMV.

With my (admittedly little) experience with both Black Templars and Khorne Daemons, Black Templars have the least chance of survival. They force themselves into situations they won't always get out of, they aren't particularly special with CC, however you are essentially only limited in its application to how many you spend the points on. If you put them in transports they may have a fighting chance if you give them flamers to shoot from the firing points. Those 5+ invulnerable saves will be ineffective to the massed Bloodletters any smart player would bring (they're the bread and butter of any good Khorne army, the Bloodcrushers are just the extra Muscle.) However, a smart player will send in winged DPs/Bloodthirsters to trash your transports, and deepstrike the bloodletters in around the transport, wait for it to blow up, then charge in. The greatest strength of the SM is (arguably, I will admit) their 3+ save. This is useless against Khorne. Hellblades with Str 5 Int 5 WS 5 A3 MONSTERS will rampage through any infantry the SM throw at them. BA would fare the best against them, because they have the option to run away and shoot; their jump packs are invaluable at not only assaulting, but getting the hell away from the daemons. A carefully managed BA army has to be carefully managed, but will do it the best. A few Predators would take care of any Soulgrinders/MCs.

What I'm trying to say is that while it isn't impossible, you will always be fighting an uphill battle against them.

Dirty tricks BT can do that few other marine chapters can.

•Re-roll failed to hit rolls.
•Decent cheap assault troops
•Smoke launchers that auto downgrade pens to glance.
•Veteran skills on dreads and terminators
•A move and use relic to gain +1 attacks to all units within 2D6"
•Orbs
•Cheap and flexible assault marines. 2pts per model to give them meltabombs? 3pts for a storm shield? Yes please.
•Access to LRCs as troop transports
•Dreadnoughts that can reroll failed to hit rolls in C
•True retinues to hide characters
•Rights of Battle



Automatically Appended Next Post:

hey force themselves into situations they won't always get out of, they aren't particularly special with CC,

How so? Special with CC? BT have access to some of the best CC units in the game. We are the only terminators left that can take veteran skills. We are the only marines left that can take meltabombs on all our assault marines and we are the only marine army left that can take veteran skills on our command squads...and take them in squads bigger than 5.

However, a smart player will send in winged DPs/Bloodthirsters to trash your transports,

I still fail to see how these units will be doing that if BT are in LRCs. I will always have the chance to react first because of daemon units have to sit a turn. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying that BT have plenty of tools to deal with KDAs. Mixed daemon armies...it's a little more difficult.

CaptKaruthors wrote:
I still fail to see how these units will be doing that if BT are in LRCs. I will always have the chance to react first because of daemon units have to sit a turn. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying that BT have plenty of tools to deal with KDAs. Mixed daemon armies...it's a little more difficult.

I agree with this statement. Most of the time marine assault units will be choosing the battle but it depends on if the KDA player what he puts into his preferred wave. I dont have much experience fighting against KDA and their weakness is a lack of shooting but a smart KDA player will make sure the fragile bloodletters are outside of charge range and force you to deal with crushers, DP, or Bloodthirsters.

Landraiders of any capacity is a bane to any deamon army but I do warn all SM players not to underestimate Deamons in hth.

For Vanilla Marines Land Speeders with MM/HF and Land Raiders effectively answer the majority of threats any KDA can bring to bear.

Speeders can burn down troops or melta down Soul Grinders and DPs. A "normal" Vanilla Marines army doesn't really have to rely on assault to wipe out a KDA because their other tools suffice in the shooting phase; TH Terms don't even have to disembark until peeling Bloodletters off of an objective is necessary, or if the Bloodthirster absolutely must be dealt with in one turn.

Rhinos that shuffle sideways every turn are quite survivable against any of the basic foot elements (6s to hit, 4-5 to glance, 4-6 on the vehicle damage table to stop it from doing its shuffle).

Space Wolves on the other hand can do a decent job of meeting KDAs in the assault, especially 15 missile launcher SWs thinning out bloodletter packs with frag missiles or concentrating fire on MCs to take them out. On average, they can kill a Bloodthirster every turn. Razorback squads squatting on objectives are, again, mostly immune to basic H2H and Twolf Cav can simply hang out in cover and, with counterattack, receive their normal 6 attacks against I1 assaulters.

I'd say the big assault SM list that can reliably put paid to a KDA in close combat would be MotF + 3-6 Ironclads. Add in 6 MM/HF speeders and/or Las/Plas Razorbacks to run interference versus Bloodletters/Soul Grinders and a few Scout Sniper squads just to throw the extra odd wound on the T5+ stuff and the Daemon player is completely screwed. If the big Daemons die to shooting, the little Daemons are completely tarpitted against AV13 CC walkers. Heralds/Bloodcrushers/Bloodletters simply cannot get through Ironclads.

CaptKaruthors wrote:Dirty tricks BT can do that few other marine chapters can.

•Re-roll failed to hit rolls.
•Decent cheap assault troops
•Smoke launchers that auto downgrade pens to glance.
•Veteran skills on dreads and terminators
•A move and use relic to gain +1 attacks to all units within 2D6"
•Orbs
•Cheap and flexible assault marines. 2pts per model to give them meltabombs? 3pts for a storm shield? Yes please.
•Access to LRCs as troop transports
•Dreadnoughts that can reroll failed to hit rolls in C
•True retinues to hide characters
•Rights of Battle



Automatically Appended Next Post:

hey force themselves into situations they won't always get out of, they aren't particularly special with CC,

How so? Special with CC? BT have access to some of the best CC units in the game. We are the only terminators left that can take veteran skills. We are the only marines left that can take meltabombs on all our assault marines and we are the only marine army left that can take veteran skills on our command squads...and take them in squads bigger than 5.

However, a smart player will send in winged DPs/Bloodthirsters to trash your transports,

I still fail to see how these units will be doing that if BT are in LRCs. I will always have the chance to react first because of daemon units have to sit a turn. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying that BT have plenty of tools to deal with KDAs. Mixed daemon armies...it's a little more difficult.

Oh yeah, definitley. I'm not trying to make the BT sound like crap, it's just they aren't the best option here. Yes they have powerful weapons, cheap equipment and big vehicles, but if you're going almost stricly CC with them, it's still an uphill battle no matter how you spin it. Khorne Daemons are designed to be the best in CC, and a few of your stats superiority comments work best assuming you get the charge.

Look, LRCs are hard to pop no matter what, especially with Daemons. Extra armor and Frag Assault Launchers standard are monstrous and just mean, but let's face it, if you didn't know you were playing KDA beforehand, would you take every CC squad in an LRC? Not usually. You'd be taking Rhinos and Razorbacks as cheap and effective transports. Their HQs are effective and efficient, (best value for the price) but not the most effective. (Have you read the new space wolves codex? Lots of much more powerful units, however the price is really, really high.)

As for them getting into situations they can't quite get out of: when you're doing an unmatched zeal movement towards your enemy every time you take a casualty (I don't know about you, but I always take a Master of Sanctity/Reclusiarch,) ESPECIALLY if you bring in heavy weapons, you're asking for a bit of trouble. All I'm saying is they get themselves into sticky situations. It's fluffy, but risky.

Lastly, the biggest flaw I can see is lack of infantry mobility. You can make up for this with bikes, but what army can't do that? The BT don't do anything special with that as far as I can tell. The availability of jump infantry as a troops option is an incredible advantage against a somewhat slow army, only faster than Nurgle is in any Chaos army. This needs to be taken advantage of.

Anyways, it's just my 2 cents.

Soul Grinders in a KDA are there primarily for shooting. Their close combat abilities just make them more versatile. A little bit of shooting in an army that is solely focused on close combat is huge if properly used. Sure the 4+ cover save is very nice but the big blast templates add up quickly and the losses are costly to the SM army taking the hits.

On the flip side it seems here that everyone is assuming the Bloodletters are moved around in clumps and the KDA player does not take advantage of cover. It's not the case. Bloodletters in cover are as hard to flush out as a squad of Marines... the only difference is the flamer template but to use this template means the weapon must move into the charge arc of the KDA. Spacing of the Bloodletters will greatly minimize wounds as any good player knows.

Sure BT can field multiple landraider Crusaders but I have not seen one army at 1850 points or less that has more than two. Once you add a third you are cutting into the rest of the army. I love it when a SM player moves up, fires all their guns and then charge. They do some damage and then they are absorbed. SM armies will not win a battle of attrition versus KDA if they engage in mass assaults. The best way to handle KDA is to move away. As has been pointed out every close combat weapon in a KDA ignores armor saves and every daemon has an INV save. Sure you can bring some stormshields but you cannot disperse them throughout the SM army and they will go down if you force enough saves. 5th edition is all about who can roll the most dice... if you are rolling a lot of saves you are doing something wrong, thats just the way it is.

Charging Crushers is a catch 22 situation. You can do it and deny them the benefit of the charge but they are still WS5-S5-T5-2W-A3. Crushers are undercosted. They can take a charge and dish it back out. I think one squad of 8 is much better than two squads of 4. You cant alpha strike a complex squad of 8.

Sure MotF and six Ironclads can do well against KDA on paper but first how many of these armies do you see? I haven't seen one. If I was playing against one I would kill all their troop choices. You can bet there will not be many and they wont be riding around in AV14 transports either.

The point about walkers I made is simply there to show that when people say dreadnaughts offer no counter it simply is not true. And even if a walker should charge a squad of Crushers it is then locked in place and a prime target for being assaulted by the Bloodthirster. I have two models in my squad of Crushers that have rending. Add in the extra attacks and the odds are not so great anymore for the dreadnaught. Dreadnaughts do move so fast so there is no reason why they should have better odds at charging.

G

KDA do not have frag grenades.

this gives marines, even the assult-oriented ones, the possibility to shoot whenever possible, while still striking first if in cover (or placed so that the KDA have to move through.

This is especially true for SW with counter charge.

The BA case appears a bit different; you can have furious charge (at least partially), so you should exploit your mobility (LR and jump packs - KDA hardly move more that 6"), and focus on isolated units (rhino wall) to destroy them before they can retaliate.
Rhinos can be used to prevent charges from KDA, which is the key point.

edit: realized after that this meets some of the points discussed by Sourclams.

Green Blow Fly wrote:
The point about walkers I made is simply there to show that when people say dreadnaughts offer no counter it simply is not true. And even if a walker should charge a squad of Crushers it is then locked in place and a prime target for being assaulted by the Bloodthirster. I have two models in my squad of Crushers that have rending.

If it's a large squad then it's about guaranteed there'll be no place for a Bloodthirster to base up; 6 Crusher models will completely encircle a Dreadnought due to mandatory B2B. Since the Dreadnought is only going to put about 1 wound on a Crusher each assault, it'll take about 2 full turns before an 8 model squad gives up enough models that there's room for anything else with a large base to get in.

As to rending versus AV12, a Crusher is going to get about 1 Rend every 3 phases (3*2/3*1/6). That one Rend has a 66% chance of being a pen, and that one pen has a 33% chance of destroying the Dread. That'd give a Blood Crusher squad roughly a 7.4% chance of killing an AV12 Dread in any one assault phase, or about the same odds as a single BS4 lascannon destroying a Land Raider.

I don't think anyone claims that it's impossible for Crushers to damage Dreadnoughts, but it's very, very unlikely.

The important thing to note, is that Marines aren't concerned with Blood Crushers is assault with a Dread lasting a few turns, it's actually what they want. The Blood Crushers take up a decent portion of the army, and stopping them from going anywhere allows the Marines to take care of the rest of the army much more easily.

In the situation you posted GBF, the Thirster will have to decide on entering the combat with the Dread or going after a Raider, and that is assuming that the same turn a Dreadnought charges the Blood Crushers, isn't the same turn your Thirster is getting shot up and charged by Assault Terminators.

Look, LRCs are hard to pop no matter what, especially with Daemons. Extra armor and Frag Assault Launchers standard are monstrous and just mean, but let's face it, if you didn't know you were playing KDA beforehand, would you take every CC squad in an LRC? Not usually.

I think you miss the point of BT. More often then not they are mounted for assaults. Two Land Raiders backed by smaller squads in Rhinos and support elements like Attack Bikes and Speeders are usually the best lists I have seen.

Herald w. Unholy Might & Fury + Furious Charge
5 attacks, hits on 3+ -> 3-4 hits
1 rend -> S7 + 6 + d3 = auto pen

Crusher w. Fury + Furious Charge
4 attacks, hits on 3+ -> 3 hits
1 rend -> S6 + 6 + d3 = auto pen

So two pens that hit first. If the walker is not destroyed there is a good chance it will either lose it's DCCW or be immobilized. The Ven dread won't reroll those results. Now in the next assault phase if the dread loses it's other arm and suffers another weapon destroyed results it is destroyed. Even without furious charge the herald still auto pens and the rending Crusher pens 67% of the time. So at best a dreadnaught should last at most three rounds of close combat. The Bloodthirster can move up to intercept the dreadnaught and will most likely be destroyed the first round of close combat. This leaves the two LRC unengaged so they will probably be able to target the Crushers. Even with both LRC firing into the Crushers I highly doubt they can remove one model. If the Crushers are screened by Bloodletters then SM cannot charge the Crushers. So KDA still has the advantage.

In killpoint missions KDA tend to be small armies that don't give up a lot of killpoints. My KDA gives up a maximum of 9 killpoints. So again they have the advantage if the SM engage in mass assaults.

Typical BT army based upon discussion here:
3x HQ (including EC)
2x LRC
2x dreadnaught
Assault terminators
3x troops + 2 rhinos

That'd 13 killpoints for a difference of 4 overall.

G

Seeing as how I play CSM, it's kind of similar. I guess the strategy may not apply to everyone (it will to SWs atleast), but...I like having a lot of marines & rhinos with bolters. The 5+ save is pretty bad, 4+ in cover is ok....but being an assault based army, I find its just important to minimize their numbers when they get to you in CC. You can win combat over them if you outnumber them.

Having 50+ marines, and 4+ rhino is nice (2k points). Including heavy support and elites, I can have well over 100 shots even in an army thats based around CC. Again, I know Chaos are a little different with their gear, but SMs can still take dakka preds, missles, flamers, etc. that just pile on wounds.

It's kind of easy too when only half the army comes in at the beginning. Usually its just a big guy or two and a bunch of troops.

CC is definitely part of my strategy here, its just important to lay on as many wounds as possible before you get in there.

100 shots sounds great, but will you really be able to take that many at any given time? If you are rapid firing bolters then you have disembarked are within the charge arc of KDA. Grinders and the greater daemon are invulnerable to small arms fire. CSM invariably die in droves once engaged in close combat versus KDA as all their attacks have high weapon skill, lots of attacks and ignore armor saves.

G

G

Well, I generally condense myself in a symmetrical circle in my deployment zone/corner. Basically my Long Range fire is in the back and a wall of rhinos (with all troops embarked) on the enemy side. This does a few things:

-Scares the daemon player from coming into my zone in fear of DS mishap. (very little area where a full squad can come in without touching something)
-If he does take the risk, hes completely surrounded and isolated and has to deal with a couple of dreadnoughts.
-If he goes outside the circle, I have control over a much, much larger area of the table

Then assuming he plays it safe and goes outside my circle of death, with my rhino wall I will either:

1) Disembark from my transports if the daemons are within 12-14", and pummel them with 100+ shots

Or

2) Disembark from my rhinos and stand still, waiting for the daemons to come to me if theyre really far away, ~more than 24 inches (not likely)

Or

3) Move my rhinos 12 inches, get out and meet them head on, and shoot them with 100+ shots if they are within 12.1-24". (Likely against a good player).


Number 3 is the most likely because your opponent will count on fleeting towards you without even getting shot. You have to meet them head on and knock these units down before their friends arrive.

I have no problem taking the charge if theyre only getting a couple of extra attacks due to them only having a few guys left. Its much better than being fleet'd to death.

Okay first this discussion is supposed to be about close combat but it's okay to go off topic and discuss shooting as your main strategy, you've pretty much agreed you can't beat down KDA in assault, which was my point... So thanks.

Now let's look at the counter to four rhinos rapid firing with the CSM disembarking. You have moved into the charge arc. Your small arms fire will have to either target the big squad of Crushers are shoot through cover at the Bloodletters. Don't forget the Bloodthirster and two Grinders... I'll address those later.

100 shots at 36 Bloodletters, 66 hit and 33 wound. You have killed less than half the Bloodletters who will then charge you... But first the grinders will drop a couple of pie plates on you. Now if you decide to focus fire on the Crushers instead...

100 shots, 66 hit and 22 wound.

That's 7 failed armor saves, not even one Crusher is removed.

You can stay back and not rush in. This means though that your style of play is no assaulted oriented and really does not fit into this discussion. It can be countered by KDA though. They can drop in forming a circle around your perimeter and then move in to engage you. You won't be able to break their line in such a way as to mbr able to move out of their assault range. You might get in another turn of shooting but I think the end result will net out the same.

G

I know its a little offtopic, but it has a close combat premise that maybe SM players can apply. I was just trying to contribute a foundation to run off of, since even close combat SMs have some good shooting.

The thing with my strategy is, those 100 shots (with rhinos and havocs its even more) only consist of a little over half my points. This is purely troops on troops. Those 36 bloodletters are about 600 points if I remember right. Theyre not going to be one squad either, so a few bloodletters assaulting a 10 man marine squad isnt going to go over so well for them.

The bloodcrushers are just a powerful unit. You need to hit them heavy stuff (which really shouldnt be doing much else unless you only have Anti infantry stuff).

Remember its going to be half his army vs your entire army 1st turn.

some have proposed here is better to put the SM army in reserve.

Since you are clearly an advocate of shooting to win I hope you dont mind if we could stick on topic. Please feel free to start another thread though.

: )

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Herald w. Unholy Might & Fury + Furious Charge
5 attacks, hits on 3+ -> 3-4 hits
1 rend -> S7 + 6 + d3 = auto pen

Crusher w. Fury + Furious Charge
4 attacks, hits on 3+ -> 3 hits
1 rend -> S6 + 6 + d3 = auto pen

That math only adds up to .99 penetrating hits in the turn you charge. (9*2/3/6) Then of your one penetrating hit, you have a 1/3 chance to destroy it outright, and 2/3 of the time a 350 point unit gets completely bogged down trying in vain to kill an AV12 walker. Destroying close combat weapons or immobilization really aren't going to help you (unless you're trying to glance it to death, which you probably won't by the end of the game) because you're still locked in combat with the Walker.

some have proposed here is better to put the SM army in reserve.

This is a patently horrible idea against Daemons. It'd be like standing on a pier over a shark tank with a harpoon, and deciding to jump in in order to fight the shark. Deep striking and piecemeal entry is the one big glaring weakness of the Daemon codex. With the sole exception of specific Eldar and IG builds that can control their reserves rolls and have extremely high mobility, there's no reason to fight a piecemeal army piecemeal yourself.

Okay first this discussion is supposed to be about close combat but it's okay to go off topic and discuss shooting as your main strategy, you've pretty much agreed you can't beat down KDA in assault, which was my point... So thanks.

The initial question seems silly then. SMs win games via a combination of assaulting and shooting regardless of build and most models are paying points for shooting ability. You are basically asking can a Marine army beat a Khorne army with its right arm tied around its back. The answer is of course no.

True retinues to hide characters

Bit OT but the codex specifically overrides the rulebook in this case (pg 22 of BT codex). BT ICs will always fight as ICs.

Green Blow Fly wrote:some have proposed here is better to put the SM army in reserve.

Since you are clearly an advocate of shooting to win I hope you dont mind if we could stick on topic. Please feel free to start another thread though.

: )

G

Yes, I use shooting to win, in addition to close combat. An army like Blood Angels dont shoot quite as well as CSM. Okay....

But do you still not use tacticals? Do you not use Baal Preds? Rhinos? These things all shoot. Unless I misunderstood this topic for literally beating daemons with no shooting, shooting is still going to be a key advantage to utilize over your opponent.

The point of my posts was to get the point across to lower their numbers before you get into CC, and you cant sit back because youll get assaulted while doing no damage yourself. Assault marines, in addition to the above, still get 1 shot with their pistol before they charge in. Do you not have characters that give you +1 I, S and WS with rerolls to hit or wound on charge? So after shooting the daemons up, you get to go first in CC against 5+ saves?

As for leaving your army in reserve - just like clammy said, no. Dont do this. He gets to bring in only half his army at the start, use this to your advantage.

I agree with most posters that dreads are the best HtH answer against KDA. Marines should outshoot the KDA army, but a heavy assault oriented marine list shold always have access to dreads and take them. I would recommend 2-3 dreads in an assault oriented marine list and 1-2 dreads in a balanced list.

BA, BT, and SW all have access to dreads. It is very hard for bloodcrushers to get the charge on a dread and more likely the dread will charge them. Large squads of crushers will encircle the dread and prevent the MC's from clearing it out.

All the dread has to fear are KDA mc's and theose MC's should be eliminated. A double tap of melta followed by an assault (str 5 from BA's, preferred enemy from BT or hitting on 3's with SW) can drop a KDA MC. I'm not saying 10 guys against a full strength Thirster all alone, but put 1-2 wounds on the big fella first and you've got a good chance to take him down from a troop squad.

I think a 3 dread assault oriented marine list can indeed win vs. the KDA army described above.