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I've recently gotten into 40k, and I chose Orks to start. In general, they're pretty amazing, and I've been winning a lot of my games. Recently, I went up against Chaos Space Marines of Slaanesh, and their high initiative on their melee units really wrecked my boyz. I've been putting boyz (and nobz) in trukks and a battlewagon, and trying to get them up into melee as fast as possible, but once they got their, they lost the combat because they lost a lot of boyz before being able to return the attacks.

I lost a trukk full of boyz and the battlewagon full of boyz because they got knocked under 10 models and failed their leadership tests (penalties of 7 or more from losing the combat), and even after rerolling from the bosspole, still failed. Even my Nob unit got wrecked, with a painboy and cybork bodies.

I've been thinking of ways to counter high initiative melee units, and the only things I can come with are taking more shooting units when I fight them (probably a poor idea), taking way more boyz, and just throwing them all into mobs of 30, or taking a Deff Dread.

What are my best options for winning HtH against high initiative units?

What?
How is I5 any different than I4 when normal boyz are concerned? Boyz are like I2 and get I3 on the charge.

Like you say: shoot them more.
If they don't have grenades, get into cover. (the CSM do have offensive grenades though).

Have more bodies, enough to take wounds, remain above 11 and try to fist/weight of attacks to kill them all before round 2's end.

You could try a battlewagon full of Burna boys and drive by them. Getting 10 to 15 templates on the enemy can really ruin his day.

The way to counter high initiative is by increasing your staying power, as you've already realized, but you missed one method to do this: better armor.

A lot of people will tell you that 'eavy Armor isn't worth the cost, but I find that a unit of 30 'ard Boyz is a very effective footslogging force. The 4+ armor will be effective against practically all normal shooting attacks, and really makes a difference in melee. Adding armor to some of your Nobz can also be pretty scary, I run a full unit of ten 'ard Nobz supported by a Warboss in a Trukk, and they really wreck shop.

For models, I use the old Goff models you can still get on eBay, since they all have helmets and armored vests, converted to hold a variety of shields. 'ard Nobz are just Fantasy Black Orks with pistols and other futuristic gubbins added in.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll see what I can do to mix my army around and try to field tougher boyz, or burnaz, hmm...

I'm hesitant to make mobs of 30 boyz, though. When I put all the boyz in vehicles, I can get into melee by turn 2, and I usually have good luck keeping trukks in cover, and wagons tend to live. If I make 30 'ard boyz walk, that's 300 points minimum that won't arrive until turn 3 or 4. Even worse if the opponent falls back to a corner, or there's a lot of terrain in the way.

Sanctjud wrote:What?
How is I5 any different than I4 when normal boyz are concerned? Boyz are like I2 and get I3 on the charge.

Like you say: shoot them more.
If they don't have grenades, get into cover. (the CSM do have offensive grenades though).

Have more bodies, enough to take wounds, remain above 11 and try to fist/weight of attacks to kill them all before round 2's end.

Orks are I3, I4 on charge. Im curious how you dont know that, as that is one of the major reasons Orks must get the charge (and why you shouldnt let them), you dont play orks often?


Anyways, if youre getting the charge on Noise Marines/Slaneesh CSM, you should only be losing 5 guys. Chaos is probably your toughest opponent as we can shoot and assault well. You still do better in CC, but no where near the advantage you have over regular SMs.

Try using your lootas to knock down the numbers a bit, maybe use shoota boyz (2 shots then assault).

Boyz are init 2, 3 on charge
nobz are init 3, 4 on charge

Well, thats my boo, I read trukks and my brain told me Nobz. Apologies Sanctjud. Jeez, not only that, Im not sure how I got 5...I think thats a boyz number I had memorized.

Ok, well, in that case, my suggestion is to run footslogging boyz. I thought that was a given, but when you have 30 boyz (some will die on the way), the few you lose in combat wont matter as much.

This is embarrassing because the army I play against the most is orks and I know their rules inside out haha.

Lesson Learned: Read the entire topic thoroughly before quoting someone for being wrong haha.

EDIT: And someone posted in between my posts and now I really look dumb haha

Night Lords wrote: you dont play orks often?

LOL so you asked this qn when you yourself don't play them often?

Anyway, when you charge with trukk boyz, always remember not to charge with only 12.
CHarge with 2 trukk load of boyz. That is because you need the staying power to strike back. And 24 boyz are still very cheap, so no issues with that.

Davicus wrote:

Night Lords wrote: you dont play orks often?

LOL so you asked this qn when you yourself don't play them often?

Anyway, when you charge with trukk boyz, always remember not to charge with only 12.
CHarge with 2 trukk load of boyz. That is because you need the staying power to strike back. And 24 boyz are still very cheap, so no issues with that.

If you read the rest youd know I thought they were Nobs...

MANz will in general wreck anything that Chaos Marines can throw at them in H2H. Their armor is good enough to soak up the brunt of CSM I4 attacks and various kombi wargear can let you allocate wounds around.

MANz lend themselves pretty well to a Trukk style army.

If you have 3 squads of Lootas busting open CSM rhinos, then a KFF Mek plus 19 'Ard Boyz in a battlewagon, a Warboss, and 3-4 MANz Trukks should be able to mop up any squads that fall out, even/especially Plague Marine lists.

Another great addition versus Chaos is Killa Kan squadrons with Grotzookas. They can both out-shoot and out-fight the troop options at equivalent points quite reliably; sure a charge from 10 berzerkers with an aspiring champ power fist will wipe a squad before they attack, but then you've used a 135 point unit to expose a 270 point unit for the attack. Fair trade.

I didnt know 3 different combinations can be regarded as being true wound allocation loadout.

If you're running 4-5 model MAN squads in Trukks you've got 4 individualized allocation groups.

Why are you being such an odious tard?

sourclams wrote:If you're running 4-5 model MAN squads in Trukks you've got 4 individualized allocation groups.

Why are you being such an odious tard?

So would you please enlighten us as to how you can form 4 individualized allocation groups using MANz?


Oh, and being rude doesnt make you look less stupid. It just seems to me you don't know your stuff but is just trolling around.

Krall,

This game you mentioned wouldn't have happened at the Seattle Battle Bunker last Saturday? LOL, I was the Chaos player. I was thinking of posting on this forum how I take on Orks with CSM, it was a very tough match. Truth be told I think your down fall was charging my lesser daemons with your Nobz instead of forcing your way up the hill a turn earlier. This allowed me to get my troops arranged so that I could get the charge on you with my largest surviving squad and get my leader attached.

Please people stop giving him advice! Now I will have to come up with a new tactic to beat his Orks!

I have been painting away furiously so should have more stuff done for the next game.

Chris

If I may snipe the answer to 4 wound allocation groups in a 4-5 MANZ ina trukk situation then here is the answer.

Warboss is Group A.
Standard MANz is Group B.
Shoota/Skorcha is Group C.
Shoota/Rokkit Launcha is group D.

Any additional MANz will fit in one of those groups. Another Warboss may be added for a fifth wound allocation group if you'd really like to put all of your eggs in one basket.

Gitzbitah wrote:If I may snipe the answer to 4 wound allocation groups in a 4-5 MANZ ina trukk situation then here is the answer.

Warboss is Group A.
Standard MANz is Group B.
Shoota/Skorcha is Group C.
Shoota/Rokkit Launcha is group D.

And there we go.

Oh, and being rude doesnt make you look less stupid. It just seems to me you don't know your stuff but is just trolling around.

Dude. You're an odious slow Netrager without a good grasp of the codex that you've 'Played a HUNNERD games' with. Nobody here is impressed with your lackluster genius.

Davicus - Your post about "True wound allocation" was an obvious troll. This is not allowed on Dakka.

Sourclams - Calling Davicus a "slow" is a personal attack, also not allowed on Dakka.

Both of you need to click on Rule #1 in my sig to re-read the Dakka rules. Further violations of the Dakka rules will result in disciplinary actions.

sourclams wrote:

Gitzbitah wrote:If I may snipe the answer to 4 wound allocation groups in a 4-5 MANZ ina trukk situation then here is the answer.

Warboss is Group A.
Standard MANz is Group B.
Shoota/Skorcha is Group C.
Shoota/Rokkit Launcha is group D.

And there we go.

Oh, and being rude doesnt make you look less stupid. It just seems to me you don't know your stuff but is just trolling around.

Dude. You're an odious slow Netrager without a good grasp of the codex that you've 'Played a HUNNERD games' with. Nobody here is impressed with your lackluster genius.

Before you make a fool of yourself again or try to, MANz refers to MegaArmored Nobz. So you obviously wasnt referring to a MA Warboss. And obviously, i dont understand how Gitzbitah got the idea that it refers to a warboss. Well, unless both of you cant tell the difference (much as I expected), as I dont expect much from you guys.

If you don't know your stuff and is trying to ride on other's explanation, then i suggest you stay quiet.

Just a quick aside, while picking fights to gain rep is a time honored tactic, you might want to reconsider your target. Sourclams is a pretty well respected poster here while your greatest contributions seem to be talking about how nobody else knows how to play orks.

As you yourself posted once: if you have a point, make it.

Polonius wrote:Just a quick aside, while picking fights to gain rep is a time honored tactic, you might want to reconsider your target. Sourclams is a pretty well respected poster here while your greatest contributions seem to be talking about how nobody else knows how to play orks.

As you yourself posted once: if you have a point, make it.

Yes, I made my point that there is no way for a troop of MANz - MegaA NOBz to have more than 3 allocation groups. If you regard your MANz as Warbosses, then I ll call my ork boyz space marines next time, and argue for 3+ armor saves


And I lol at "pretty well respected". I obviously wldnt think so, more so after looking at his usage of words.

Well, aside from the freaking out that Sourclams is a terrible dakkaite because he was off by one about the number of Wound Allocation options of MANz...

The place that Trukkboyz really fall flat is when you pretend that they're A) marines or B) larger squads. The best thing I can say with Trukkboy squads is that they're only 142 (ish, calculated with RPJ and PK/BP nob) points properly kitted out. Which means that they're expendable and they're not worth even 150 points. Which, for me, is a clear sign that I shouldn't send them into combat alone. I learned this lesson when I went from a 'tide to Trukkboyz, and realized that my troops choices couldn't do it alone. Losing 6 models before I struck suddenly became a pretty big deal. Which means that instead of a small squad of 12, hit them with two squads. Not only do you have more bodies, but you have the usefulness of another s9 klaw, just in case one whiffs. Especially when it comes to squads like marked CSM who have 2 attacks each and are nice and expensive. Basically the only time I would throw a single squad at something is if it just needs some cleanup (AKA lootas/rokkits/grotzookas whittled it down).

With your nobs, the solution is also fairly straightforward. 'eavy armor and a painboy. It don't matter if you're striking last when they're working through your 4+ with FNP, especially if you mix up the allocation. Suddenly, those 23 attacks (10 CSM w/champ) are doing about 1.5 wounds after all saves (more with a fist) Not even one dead nob. Then you can krump away.

TL;DR version: Charge with multiple trukk squads, make sure your nobs are individually equipped and have a painboy. Should help out a bit.

I also second the use of Killa Kanz and BWs full of Burnas. Those are both way fun.

The problem with using MANz against chaos is that many/most Chaos players roll with lots of vindicators or oblits. Combined with the nearly inevitable Lash, your MANz are going to have a pretty tough time getting to combat alive (since their ride will likely be the first one trashed).

Spooner6 wrote:Krall,

This game you mentioned wouldn't have happened at the Seattle Battle Bunker last Saturday? LOL, I was the Chaos player. I was thinking of posting on this forum how I take on Orks with CSM, it was a very tough match. Truth be told I think your down fall was charging my lesser daemons with your Nobz instead of forcing your way up the hill a turn earlier. This allowed me to get my troops arranged so that I could get the charge on you with my largest surviving squad and get my leader attached.

Please people stop giving him advice! Now I will have to come up with a new tactic to beat his Orks!

I have been painting away furiously so should have more stuff done for the next game.

Chris

Oh man, that was totally you. >

Yeah, I'm busy paintin' and workin' on ways to improve my game. I'll be ready, I think!