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There's this obnoxious rules interaction in the IC rules which I thought I'd ask about since I don't remember seeing anyone else mention it:

In the first paragraph of the IC rules, the rules explain that IC's can't join vehicle squadrons and non-IC single unit models. In the first bullet point, it has three statements:
* A rule that if an IC ends the movement phase within 2" of a unit, it automatically joins the unit.
* A rule that if an IC doesn't intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it has to remain more than 2" away at the end of the movement phase.
* A statement that the intent of the rule is to make it clear whether or not an IC has joined a unit.

So it makes it sorta difficult for a Techmarine to get into base contact with a damaged vehicle at the start of the shooting phase if he's not allowed to end his movement phase within 2" of the vehicle.

Did I miss the memo which told everyone to just white out the "(or cannot)" bit and act like GW wrote something reasonable?

solkan wrote:Did I miss the memo which told everyone to just white out the "(or cannot)" bit and act like GW wrote something reasonable?

Nope. RaW you can never get into Base Contact to fix a vehicle.

GW don't know how to write rules for gak.

You can't "Join" a vehicle unit (it does specify which units the IC can and cannot join) so you'll be fine to end your move within 2" of a vehicle.

Chromedog - that does not match with the actual rules.

If you "cannot" join a unit then you must stay 2" away.

Yup, exactly. He cannot join the vehicle, so must ALWAYS remain more that 2" away.

It makes disembarking hazardous as well!

Well, you can move within 2''. You just can't end the move within 2'' of a vehicle.

It is also possible for a techmarine to fix a vehicle under RAW. If he joins another unit, probably servitors, he is exempt from the restriction of not being able to go within 2'' of a unit he does not want to join. You can only be in one unit.

Huh, I looked again and it is covered in the INAT FAQ, RB.48A.02 in version 3 and it is marked as a rules change, so I guess there was a memo for some people, there just wasn't a big fuss about it. Heh.

It's funny about an IC standing next to both a vehicle and a unit of guys. The second sentence of that bullet point says to nominate which unit is being joined, obviously the unit of guys in this case. But then the next sentence refutes that point by saying that if the IC isn't going to join, there has to be a 2" distance. So, permission given by one sentence and permission denied by the very next sentence.

And RAW joining a unit isn't any defense for this silliness because an IC joined to a unit is still an IC.

Bah, just file it in the same bin with the rules about placing templates, I guess.

Doesn't an IC joining an, otherwise stationary, squad also prevent that squad from shooting heavy weapons?

Guess they are too busy saluting.

Steelmage99 wrote:Doesn't an IC joining an, otherwise stationary, squad also prevent that squad from shooting heavy weapons?

Guess they are too busy saluting.

No.

Page 48:

If an independent character moves and joins or leaves a unit that did not move, the character counts as having moved in the ensuing Shooting phase, but the unit does not.

Phew.

To answer your original question:

Techmarines are not Independant Characters, whether they have a retinue or not. They cannot join a unit and are free to move around by themselves (and get within 2" of a vehicle or any unit for that matter if they want). They will never count as attached except to their own retinue if they have one.

Check the codex, no IC rule for tech marines.

PolecatEZ wrote:To answer your original question:

Techmarines are not Independant Characters, whether they have a retinue or not. They cannot join a unit and are free to move around by themselves (and get within 2" of a vehicle or any unit for that matter if they want). They will never count as attached except to their own retinue if they have one.

Check the codex, no IC rule for tech marines.

O rly?

Page 71, Codex: Space Marines, "Techmarine":

SPECIAL RULES
Independent Character, [...]

Page 73, Codex: Space Marines, "Thunderfire Cannon":

Each Thunderfire Cannon is crewed by a single Techmarine (see page 71 for special rules). Note that the Techmarine does not benefit from the Independent Character and Blessing of the Omnissiah special rules unless his Thunderfire Cannon has been destroyed.

Page 138, Codex Space Marines, "Techmarine":

Special Rules:
• [...]
• Independent Character
• [...]

So before the FAQ fix, the Techmarine couldn't repair vehicles?

Also MotF is also an independant character, he is a Techmarine as well afterall

Gwar! wrote:GW don't know how to write rules for gak.

Rather, Games Workshop does not write rules for "RAW".

Additionally, Gwar does not know how to write sentences with subject-verb agreement for "gak".

utan wrote:

Gwar! wrote:GW don't know how to write rules for gak.

Rather, Games Workshop does not write rules for "RAW".

Additionally, Gwar does not know how to write sentences with subject-verb agreement for "gak".

Protip: English Idioms are not always 100% standard Grammar.

Rule #1, utan.

And Gwar, you can let these kind of things go without a response, you know. Responding just validates the comment.

I did not think I was being impolite. I merely intended my comment as a humorous way to point out the irony in Gwar's post. However, as the nurglings say, humor is cruelty.

I sincerely offer my apologies to you Gwar if you were offended and to you Lorek.

Gwar! wrote:O rly?

Page 71, Codex: Space Marines, "Techmarine":...etc

A Dark Angels Techmarine, however, is not an IC.

Seems to have been a minor hiccup in the design philosophy. Codex: Black Templars took him out of the Command Squad and made him an Independant Character. Codex: Dark Angels came along and kept him as a solo option, but removed his IC status. And then the new Marines codex came out, and he was an IC again...

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:O rly?

Page 71, Codex: Space Marines, "Techmarine":...etc

A Dark Angels Techmarine, however, is not an IC.

Seems to have been a minor hiccup in the design philosophy. Codex: Black Templars took him out of the Command Squad and made him an Independant Character. Codex: Dark Angels came along and kept him as a solo option, but removed his IC status. And then the new Marines codex came out, and he was an IC again...

IG Techpriest Engineers are also not Independant Characters, which was what the OP was asking about originally IRC. Imperial Guard Codex, 5th Edition, Page 93.

RAW, 5th Edition, Page 48. first paragraph states that "they cannot join vehicle squadrons". I think this should be clear enough to let them get within 2", meaning that the later ceveat against them getting close to "units they cannot join" would mean non-vehicle squads. The 2" rule seems to be in there so it is always clear whether or not an IC is joined to a specific squad. If it is brutally, honestly clear that an IC cannot, he should be allowed to go near vehicles. How else would he disembark if riding in one if he's allowed to deploy no further than 2"?

PolecatEZ wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:O rly?

Page 71, Codex: Space Marines, "Techmarine":...etc

A Dark Angels Techmarine, however, is not an IC.

Seems to have been a minor hiccup in the design philosophy. Codex: Black Templars took him out of the Command Squad and made him an Independant Character. Codex: Dark Angels came along and kept him as a solo option, but removed his IC status. And then the new Marines codex came out, and he was an IC again...

IG Techpriest Engineers are also not Independant Characters, which was what the OP was asking about originally IRC. Imperial Guard Codex, 5th Edition, Page 93.

Yes, but the person I was replying to was talking about Techmarines.

Read the VERY FIRST PARAGRAPH (difficult to catch actually) in the RAW, page 48. IC's cannot join vehicle squadrons in any way, therefore the later 2" rule about clarity should be a non-issue.

I think this should be clear enough to let them get within 2", meaning that the later ceveat against them getting close to "units they cannot join" would mean non-vehicle squads. The 2" rule seems to be in there so it is always clear whether or not an IC is joined to a specific squad. If it is brutally, honestly clear that an IC cannot, he should be allowed to go near vehicles. How else would he disembark if riding in one if he's allowed to deploy no further than 2"?

solkan wrote:So it makes it sorta difficult for a Techmarine to get into base contact with a damaged vehicle at the start of the shooting phase if he's not allowed to end his movement phase within 2" of the vehicle.

PolecatEZ wrote:IG Techpriest Engineers are also not Independant Characters, which was what the OP was asking about originally IRC.

Eh?

funny thing, ICs can join each other.

cue A-Team :p

utan wrote:
Additionally, Gwar does not know how to write sentences with subject-verb agreement for "gak".

If you're referring to Gwar's "GW don't.." that's perfectly fine in english English. The brits use the plural for entities composed of individuals like companies, teams, bands and other groups of people. They say "the crowd are going wild" and "Metallica have a new album out" instead of the US "the crowd is going wild" and "Metallica has a new album out."

Arschbombe wrote:

utan wrote:
Additionally, Gwar does not know how to write sentences with subject-verb agreement for "gak".

If you're referring to Gwar's "GW don't.." that's perfectly fine in english English. The brits use the plural for entities composed of individuals like companies, teams, bands and other groups of people. They say "the crowd are going wild" and "Metallica have a new album out" instead of the US "the crowd is going wild" and "Metallica has a new album out."

Interesting. Just one of the many byproducts of an English upbringing but then living in the US. I usually don't even bat an eye at most of the strange British idioms/colloquialisms since it just seems to sort of make sense. I have no idea why, I guess it's probably down to formative years.

Oh and GW are a silly bunch, I doubt anyone will hold you to any ridiculous rules like that. If you're really concerned, have a chat with your opponent and I'm sure you'll come to a friendly agreement.

DoW

Lacross wrote:funny thing, ICs can join each other.

cue A-Team :p

Hey, would that make Eldrad Hannibal?
I love it when a plan comes together.

Hmm... Independent characters 'automatically' join units at the end of the movement phase, but can one 'volutarily' join another unit using Run movement? Or must a Running IC remain 2" away from friendlies?

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Hmm... Independent characters 'automatically' join units at the end of the movement phase, but can one 'volutarily' join another unit using Run movement? Or must a Running IC remain 2" away from friendlies?

An IC may use their Run Move to end up within 2" of a unit, but they do not join them, as they can only join them in the movement phase.