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Could you in theory use ATSKNF to fail a morale test when being shot at - so you can fall back out of assault range? This came up in a game against a Tyranid player the other day. His Hive Tyrant was about five inches from a squad of sternguard, and fired into it, and I purposefully failed my morale check and fell back, and then smoked him the next shooting phase with hellfire rounds. He was grumbling about it; so was this a smart (and legal) move?

As far as I know, it's Combat Tactics that allows you to purposely fail a morale test, and from what I can tell, you can choose to fail any morale tests you're called to make, then use ATSKNF to regroup automatically on your following turn. So yeah, I think it's legal, and if it is, damn smart use of your noggin.

Definitely legal, one of the main uses I can think of for Combat Tactics.

It's easy enough to counter it as an opponent - simply don't shoot at them. The HT would've likely won the combat anyway (assuming you don't have too many powerfists), and you could've chosen to fall back from the combat then but doing so would've forced extra No Retreat! wounds on the unit if the Tyrant caught them.

Agreed. 100% legit and a fine example of when its a brilliant move to use Combat Tactics.

As has already been said, this is a perfectly legal move and one of the better uses for combat tactics!

I don't see how this is a "new" use. My regular SM opponents have been doing it since the day the current codex came out. This is one of the best reasons not to use a SC that gives the army stubborn.

Now a use that I haven't seen too much is this:

SM unit becomes pinned and/or goes to ground.

SM unit takes 25% casualties.

SM unit falls back "automatically" breaking the gone-to-ground status.

Now the real question is whether or not automatically failing a morale check counts as an action that would normally be prevented by being gone-to-ground.

I don't think there are any restrictions on using abilities (Besides shooting ones) when pinned.

Just adding to that, if being pinned would still allow them to take a morale test, they would be able to use their ability as that's when it's used allowing them to fail will pinned. If pinning stopped them from taking morale tests, then I guess it would stop them from using that ability.

I don't see why the SM wouldn't be able to use Combat Tactics.

n0t_u wrote:I don't think there are any restrictions on using abilities (Besides shooting ones) when pinned.

Just adding to that, if being pinned would still allow them to take a morale test, they would be able to use their ability as that's when it's used allowing them to fail will pinned. If pinning stopped them from taking morale tests, then I guess it would stop them from using that ability.

I don't see why the SM wouldn't be able to use Combat Tactics.

Nitpick: there is no such thing as being "pinned" in the BRB. It simply forces a unit to go to ground.

Also, I don't have a rulebook handy, but I believe the language pretty much says that the unit may not take any voluntary action. I know that I can't use a farseer's psychic powers when he has gone to ground, for example, even the non-shooting beginning-of-the-turn powers.

This is viewed as a "new" use for Combat Tactics because virtually nobody plays Specsh Mareenz without one of the shiny special characters that makes you lose Combat Tactics. so it's actual usefulness is rarely realized.

That last post shows how tired I am

Anyway I checked the rules for it and it actually mentions this as an example and says they would take the test as normal.

Whilst it has gone to ground the unit may do nothing of its own volition, but will react normally if effected by enemy actions (for example, it will take Morale tests as normal).

So after reading the rules for it again, no they can't choose to fail a morale test and fall back. Because they would have already gone to ground before the 25% casualty test would happen.

A morale test is pretty clearly an effect originating from enemy actions, though. I would say that, given that the unit is forced to make the 25% casualty test in the first place, using Combat Tactics on it is totally fine. The counter for this is simple, though-- stop shooting at the unit once they hit the deck, thus preventing the Marine player from getting his chance to fall back and leaving the unit pinned for the next turn.

Fetterkey wrote:A morale test is pretty clearly an effect originating from enemy actions, though. I would say that, given that the unit is forced to make the 25% casualty test in the first place, using Combat Tactics on it is totally fine. The counter for this is simple, though-- stop shooting at the unit once they hit the deck, thus preventing the Marine player from getting his chance to fall back and leaving the unit pinned for the next turn.

Quoted for truth.
You can indeed fall back after suffering 25% casualties after going to ground, but any good player will not shoot at you when you are pinned - they know the risks associated with doing so and will want the full effect of the pinning.

No retreat wounds i've caught space marines several time but no one has ever mentioned that they just say they aren't destroyed... im beginning to see a pattern here with sm players at my store.......

Inigo Montoya wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:A morale test is pretty clearly an effect originating from enemy actions, though. I would say that, given that the unit is forced to make the 25% casualty test in the first place, using Combat Tactics on it is totally fine. The counter for this is simple, though-- stop shooting at the unit once they hit the deck, thus preventing the Marine player from getting his chance to fall back and leaving the unit pinned for the next turn.

Quoted for truth.
You can indeed fall back after suffering 25% casualties after going to ground, but any good player will not shoot at you when you are pinned - they know the risks associated with doing so and will want the full effect of the pinning.

Unless of course, the same shooting that caused the pinning also caused the 25% casualties.

Anyways, the actual combat tactics rule says this:

Codex: Space Marines, page 51 wrote:A non-fearless Space Marine unit with this special rule can choose to [emphasis mine] automatically fail any Morale check it is called upon to take.

To me this says that choosing to fail would indeed be an action the unit makes "of its own volition" so would be prohibited when the unit is gone-to-ground.

Marine units can normally fail Morale checks, so taking a test as normal means they can fail if they so choose.

Yes, it would take the test, an involuntary action, but the unit could not choose to fail, as that would be a voluntary action.

I agree with Willy on this one. There is a difference between "take Morale tests as normal" and using Combat Tactics to deliberately Fall Back.