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Ok, I'll try and knock out a couple of questions. Some tactical and some rule based.

1. The book describes the thunderfire cannon as a mobile fire base. Does it have a relentless rule I'm missing or does it just sit there?

2. Techmarines can take servitors, can servitors be assigned to thunderfires? And if so, do they benefit from "combat tactics" for purposes such as outflanking? Think khan.

Now tactics:

3. Where do thunderfires fall in the SM scale of points efficiency? They look damn good on paper.

I'm guessing nobody is gonna advise outflanking with them, but I've seen them podd'ed in lists. Do yours start on the table? Do you run them at all?

1. It sits there. As per rules it follows Artillery Unit.
2. No, the Techmarine with the TFC is his own unit, so is not an independent character yet.
3. They are pretty points efficient for what it does, a Dakka Pred is still cheaper, but the TFC is generally gooe only in 2 cases:
vs. Hordes and vs. Bike/Jetbikes.

They should really start on the table. The pod option is to manipulate the total number of pods to get certain things earlier or later.

Sanctjud wrote:The pod option is to manipulate the total number of pods to get certain things earlier or later.

Hang on, GW say in the Errata/FAQ somewhere that it is acceptable to send down an empty pod...


Back on subject - As artillery it cannot move and fire, it must remain stationary.
They are very good points wise but are annoyingly easy to pop.

I think that was what Sanctjud was implying. Say you have 6 Units in Drop Pods, and a Thunderfire. Then you buy the Thunderfire a Drop Pod aswell, with the intention to send it down empty and deploy the TFC on the table from the start. That way you get 4 Pods on turn 1 as opposed to 3.

Anyway, back on subject:

1: No, it does not have relentless. It must remain stationary to fire.

2: I´m not sure about the Combat Tactics and I don´t have a codex handy, but that could work. You are not allowed to take servitors with him though.

3: It´s damage potential is really darn good. I have seen entire Marine Squads eaten up by the amounts of saves they´d have to make. However, on the other hand it´s equally darn easy to get rid of for the opponent.

Because it isn´t relentless, a TFC should always start on the table when possible.

I love the thunderfire...

And as far as artillery goes. I just don't see it being all that easy to kill when well deployed.

The techmarine brings 'bolster defenses', so if you have a ruins in your deployment zone, both the cannon and the techmarine have a 3+ cover save. You can even hang the cannon way out of the ruins to afford the best LOS while keeping the base of the techmarine partially in the area terrain. the 'one gun, one infantry model' unit composition makes getting the whole unit cover saves a snap.

The other part of its survivability is that 60" range. You can deploy these things anywhere... out of the range of most of the enemies non mobile heavy weapons.

thunderfire cannon is just an excellent choice for SM armies, against a broad range of opponents. Even my full mech IG army hates them, when my opponent peppers 6+ of my tanks with dangerous terrain tests, i tend to get immobilized a lot.

I think they call it a mobile fire base because it *can* be moved, it's not mounted to anything. Well, it's mounted to a tracked frame.

So, it's mobile enough to get to the battlefield in the first place, but it's certainly not a run-and-gun piece. Think Civil War or Napoleonic era Field Artillery. Wheeled into position before the battle, and repositioning it will stop it from firing until it's set up again.

If you want a Self-Propelled Howitzer like the modern Paladin or SPH99, take a Vindicator. Thanks to 5th Ed, they can now roll 6" and fire.

True, keeping it in cover is mandatory for its survival and usually the opponent will have much more pressing units to deal with, such as Assault Terminators in a Land Raider homing in at his position.

However, any hits with a decent strenght the opponent gets on the gun are likely to destroy it.

I personally like the TFC and regulary uses it in my marine army. In my excperience it works as a nice little distraction for the opponent that can really hurt him if he ignores it, and if he´s shooting it, he isn´t shooting the rest of my army.

Warboss Tufgrim wrote:True, keeping it in cover is mandatory for its survival and usually the opponent will have much more pressing units to deal with, such as Assault Terminators in a Land Raider homing in at his position.

However, any hits with a decent strenght the opponent gets on the gun are likely to destroy it.

I personally like the TFC and regulary uses it in my marine army. In my excperience it works as a nice little distraction for the opponent that can really hurt him if he ignores it, and if he´s shooting it, he isn´t shooting the rest of my army.

Disagree on the likely kill part. Assuming a ballistic skill 4 missile launcher, we get the following:

1 shoot, .67 to hit unit, .50 to actually hit cannon, .83 to glance/pen, .33 failed cover which equals a roughly ~9% chance to destroy the cannon outright. The odds of killing the Techmarine with a missile are actually lower because he gets a 2+ save against the AP3. It takes a fairly concentrated volume of fire to take one out of play and that volume is very hard to come by if the cannon is deployed well as Shep suggested.

Humblesteve wrote:
2. Techmarines can take servitors, can servitors be assigned to thunderfires? And if so, do they benefit from "combat tactics" for purposes such as outflanking? Think khan.

As far as the servitors, you can take them.

"You may include one unit of Servitors for every Techmarine or Master of the Forge in your army."

Buy the TC unit, who's unit composition is: 1 Techmarine Gunner and 1 Thunderfire cannon
With the Techmarine now in the army, buy the servitor unit.

The problem is, wile the TC lives, the servitors cannot join or be joined by the TC unit of TC/Techmarine, so they suffer mindlock 50% of the time.
Also, since it dies if damaged at all, Blessing of the Omnissiah does not let you repair it. Why would you want the servitors at all?

Not a great buy IMHO.

The thunderfire cannon is freaking awesome.

If you use terrain/range effectively it is very hard to kill. Poring out multiple str6 templates does painful things to any units out there. Against marines cover doesn't matter as it doesn't beat their armor so only LOS should be taken into consideration. Against guard the no cover round is a godsend and will kill entire squads in one shot. Against orcs/nids you really need a good shot outside of cover but if you get it you can kill 15-20 models per volley.

It really is a great weapon against all armies. Even against mech shooty armies it has its uses (though far less than against most).

spycer wrote:
Not a great buy IMHO.

For a gun that only costs 25 points (minus the cost of the harness equipped Techmarine) its an outright steal of a bargain. The real cost, in my lists, for taking a Thunderfire is it being heavy support, if it were an upgrade for the elite slot Techmarine instead, I'd probably bring 2 to nearly every game.

Jack

I think spycer was referring to adding servitors, not the TFC itself.

I think spycer was referring to adding servitors, not the TFC itself.

Right. Sorry that wasn't more clear.

The TFC itself is definitely worth the points. The only debate I have is if it's worth the FOC slot, which is heavily dependent on the point total of the game in question.

Ah, I see we have the same opinion then, cheers.

Jack

PanzerLeader wrote:

Warboss Tufgrim wrote:True, keeping it in cover is mandatory for its survival and usually the opponent will have much more pressing units to deal with, such as Assault Terminators in a Land Raider homing in at his position.

However, any hits with a decent strenght the opponent gets on the gun are likely to destroy it.

I personally like the TFC and regulary uses it in my marine army. In my excperience it works as a nice little distraction for the opponent that can really hurt him if he ignores it, and if he´s shooting it, he isn´t shooting the rest of my army.

Disagree on the likely kill part. Assuming a ballistic skill 4 missile launcher, we get the following:

1 shoot, .67 to hit unit, .50 to actually hit cannon, .83 to glance/pen, .33 failed cover which equals a roughly ~9% chance to destroy the cannon outright. The odds of killing the Techmarine with a missile are actually lower because he gets a 2+ save against the AP3. It takes a fairly concentrated volume of fire to take one out of play and that volume is very hard to come by if the cannon is deployed well as Shep suggested.

Your math is off by just a little.
67% chance to hit
67% to then hit the gun (1-4 you hit the gun 5-6 you hit the crew)
83% to score a damage result
33% to fail a bolstered cover save
= ~12% to kill it outright.
If no ruins are present and the best you get is a 4+ it´s at 18,5% and if not deployed in cover at all it´s a 37% to destroy it.
And, remember that you have a small chance of actually killing the techmarine should you hit him.

The only thing that saves the TFC is the bolstered coversave, which is why I said it´s mandatory to deploy in cover when possible, but I wouldn´t say it is survivable even then. You basically rely on a regular SM armoursave for you survival, and while that isn´t bad, you will fail it sooner or later.

You are allowed to take the Servitors, he just can't join them until the cannon has been destroyed. They will move around by themselves suffering from Mind Lock until he is able to join them.

Warboss Tufgrim wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

Warboss Tufgrim wrote:True, keeping it in cover is mandatory for its survival and usually the opponent will have much more pressing units to deal with, such as Assault Terminators in a Land Raider homing in at his position.

However, any hits with a decent strenght the opponent gets on the gun are likely to destroy it.

I personally like the TFC and regulary uses it in my marine army. In my excperience it works as a nice little distraction for the opponent that can really hurt him if he ignores it, and if he´s shooting it, he isn´t shooting the rest of my army.

Disagree on the likely kill part. Assuming a ballistic skill 4 missile launcher, we get the following:

1 shoot, .67 to hit unit, .50 to actually hit cannon, .83 to glance/pen, .33 failed cover which equals a roughly ~9% chance to destroy the cannon outright. The odds of killing the Techmarine with a missile are actually lower because he gets a 2+ save against the AP3. It takes a fairly concentrated volume of fire to take one out of play and that volume is very hard to come by if the cannon is deployed well as Shep suggested.

Your math is off by just a little.
67% chance to hit
67% to then hit the gun (1-4 you hit the gun 5-6 you hit the crew)
83% to score a damage result
33% to fail a bolstered cover save
= ~12% to kill it outright.
If no ruins are present and the best you get is a 4+ it´s at 18,5% and if not deployed in cover at all it´s a 37% to destroy it.
And, remember that you have a small chance of actually killing the techmarine should you hit him.

The only thing that saves the TFC is the bolstered coversave, which is why I said it´s mandatory to deploy in cover when possible, but I wouldn´t say it is survivable even then. You basically rely on a regular SM armoursave for you survival, and while that isn´t bad, you will fail it sooner or later.

Good catch on the math. Definately not my strong suit. But even in regular cover, your Thunderfire still survives 81.5% of the time against a single shot and its survivability is increased because of its range. It will be tough for the enemy to effectively mass fires against it because it can make an impact on the game even when stationed on the periphery of the table. Its alot more durable than people expect for a 10/10/10 model and good Marine players can make the most of its 60" range to keep it in the fight.

That´s all very true PanzerLeader. I might have to rethink my conclusion a little

Truth be told, I have never actually lost a TFC during a battle.

I think that the best way to keep them alive is to keep your opponent busy with more pressing matters, such as Bike squads, Terminators in Land Raiders, Tactical Squads in Rhinos etc. rushing his position.
If you give your opponent time to focus his fire on the TFC it will be long gone.

By keeping your opponent busy, keeping the TFC in 3+ cover and using its 60" range I´d say are the best way to keeping this baby alive.

Thunderfire cannons seem to be much more effective against bad players then good ones. While they work very well the first time used, do not excpect to get the same results against an experianced player.

They are great for a couple of things:

Taking out Eldar Rangers in Cover
Targeting IG blob squads
Targeting unmounted troops with a 5+ or 6+ armor save
destroying a transport and then targeting the disembarked unit.
targeting deepstriking units
targeting a unit that is using a transport for cover. (put the hole over the transport and get a couple of models under the rest of the template)

With Mech at an all time high I'll be taking vindicators over thunderfire cannons, despite my love for them. I'd rather have 1 large blast that can kill thunderwolf cav, chimeras, and spread out troops then one that will be lucky to get more then two models under a template if you are playing against a good player.

I think you underestimate a Thunderfire Cannon.

Like any unit, it really depends on the list you field it with. Personally Thuderfires really shine in a list with Devastators and enough anti-tank in the rest of your list. I used one in a tournament this past weekend, and against IG, I regularly popped a tank each turn and wiped out the squad with the "no cover" shells. I combat tactics a squad out of combat with a Ork Nob Squad and put 11 wounds on a unit of 5 (it was 1500 point games so don't judge) as well as killed most of an Ork Boy unit that was dumb enough to hop out of a battlewagon. I then wiped out whole Gaunt Squads with the "No Cover" shells in my third game.

It's an awesome gun that I have played for a month now, and my general experience with it is either the it dies in one round of shooting in the first turn (in which case the rest of my stuff is safe) or it kills more then it worth.

The "No Cover" shells are the best, denying Guard even the opportunity to go to ground is excellent.

Mahu wrote:It's an awesome gun that I have played for a month now, and my general experience with it is either the it dies in one round of shooting in the first turn (in which case the rest of my stuff is safe) or it kills more then it worth.

This has been my exact experience too. It either blows up on Turn 1 or makes your opponent cry for the rest of the game. My big complaint with it is simply DoW missions as it has to walk on the field and if you manage to get to cover, you have to take dangerous terrain tests. If it wasn't for that, I'd take one every single game.