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This is a fairly minor issue, but I was wondering whether a sergeant for a tactical squad with a power fist should have a bolter or bolt pistol? What do you use for your power fist sergeants (other than Chaos and Space Wolves as they get to have their cake and eat it too)?

I would replace the bolter with the power fist. If your going to assault (why else do you bring a fist?) you can't rapid-fire then assault, but you CAN shoot pistols, and there is actually a difference between 9 shots and 10 shots. I suppose if you wanted you could give him a combi-weapon, but once he fires it he's then unable to shoot before an assault.

Edit: The only change would be, if you brought shirke, then replace the pistol with the fist, reason is Shirke makes everyone fleet, and if your fleet, you shouldn't be shooting before an assault, you should be running. If your not going to assault that turn, then you can put out more firepower.

What do you do more often: rapid fire with the squad, or shoot their pistols? If you're like most players, it's pretty even, possibly leaning towards rapid firing.

I go bolters because any time you're rapid firing, that's all the unit does. Maxing that makes it better. Pistols before the charge is a bonus.

The tactical squad has a rhino, right?

If it does (and it should), then keeping the bolter is the better choice. Tactical squads aren't really meant for assault, so the powerfist is mainly a defensive upgrade to give them a chance against dreadnoughts / MCs / etc.

90% of the time what will happen is your rhino moves, tactical squad disembarks, you shoot your bolters & flamer. You can't charge unless your rhino stayed still.

Bolt pistols are so rarely used that I think you'd get better mileage out of the extra rapid-fire shot.

Edit: W00T FIRST POST!!!

1) Are you using Combat Tactics or Chapter Tactics?

2) Why are you giving your Sergeant a power fist?

Fetterkey wrote:1) Are you using Combat Tactics or Chapter Tactics?

2) Why are you giving your Sergeant a power fist?

Not this again... there is no need to derail another thread with this discussion.

Personally, I go with Bolter and PF. Part of it is because I've got several of the old metal Bolter/PF models, and also because I tend to miss a Bolter when 24" shooting or RFing more than a pistol when I'm about to charge.

Fetterkey wrote:1) Are you using Combat Tactics or Chapter Tactics?

2) Why are you giving your Sergeant a power fist?

Because giving a Tac Squad a powerfist increases their ability to do anything by a large amount. Cept shooting, because you can't shoot a powerfist. (Yet.....)

Combi-flamer!

You can shoot it before the charge and you can rapid fire the bolter when standing still or doing drive-byes with your homies in a rhino.

True, you can only shoot the flamer once, but I find that in the vast majority of my games I only get one, good shot out of any flamer, and I generally only make one charge per squad. Plus with the rules for multiple templates a marine with a flamer coupled with a sergeant with a combi flamer can do a lot of damage to horde armies, or force a lot of saves on MEQ's.

If you can't afford the combi-flamer, then I guess I'd go with a bolter? I can't imagine not having room for the combi-flamer. I love it so.

Gornall wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:1) Are you using Combat Tactics or Chapter Tactics?

2) Why are you giving your Sergeant a power fist?

Not this again... there is no need to derail another thread with this discussion.

I'm actually asking so I can give better advice, as these factors influence how the model is used and thus how he should be equipped.

Well, combi-melta or combi-flamer.

You might keep the pistol and ignore the Bolter... the Sarge is needed with a power fist just to kill someone for sure if they get in contact with the shooty squad.

All my squads have this combo. Sgt with power fist and pistol.

Pistol= +1 attack!

fartime wrote:Pistol= +1 attack!

Not if you have a Pfist. You'll need another fist to gain the +1 attack

In the newest rules I'd generally say to keep the Bolter over the pistol, but personally I am not very inclined to pay that much for only two attacks with the powerfist, since once you tack that on two or three tactical squads that many would buy a whole additional unit instead.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:In the newest rules I'd generally say to keep the Bolter over the pistol, but personally I am not very inclined to pay that much for only two attacks with the powerfist, since once you tack that on two or three tactical squads that many would buy a whole additional unit instead.

Jack

Agree. Keep the Bolter as it will help you more when you stand still to shoot. If you can't assault anyway, might as well maximize the rapid fire.

I disagree on skipping out on powerfists. For 75 points, you can get another small SM unit (say, 5 scouts or a single attack bike/speeder) but I think you get more utility out of the protection offered by the fists. They cause walkers and MCs to think twice about assaulting and give you a little more flexibility in that turn when the meltagun immobilizes the enemy tank rather than killing it.

Odds of destroying a dread outright are:
2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.33 pen, 0.33 destroyed which is ~11% (significantly lower with Ven Dread rerolls or AV 13+)

Without a powerfist, your odds drop astronomically to near zero. I'd run out the math, but suffice to say you'd need 5 Krak grenades to hit on a 6, glance on a 6, and subsequently roll a 5 or 6 to get enough immobilize/weapon destroyed results. And those are all dependant rolls.

Against MCs, you have a 54% to 68% chance of causing a wound, depending on if the MC has a 6++ or 5++ save. Odds again drop significantly if the Marines instead require 6s to wound and the MC gets a 2+ or 3+ armor save.

The salient point is not that you take powerfists because you plan on assaulting. You take powerfists so that you can finish what you started with shooting and as insurance to help you tac squads get out of a bad situation.

Ronin wrote:

fartime wrote:Pistol= +1 attack!

Not if you have a Pfist. You'll need another fist to gain the +1 attack

erm....when did this happen??

When 5th edition came out.

i thought that was just lightning claws.......

Lightning Claws have been that way since 3rd edition (at least).

yeah, i meant that was the only thing i knew that you had to have two of to get the +1 a

It is at the end of the assault section, a whole page of "special weapon combos and you".

Fetterkey wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:1) Are you using Combat Tactics or Chapter Tactics?

2) Why are you giving your Sergeant a power fist?

Not this again... there is no need to derail another thread with this discussion.

I'm actually asking so I can give better advice, as these factors influence how the model is used and thus how he should be equipped.

QFT, the reason for the fist equipment will change the tactics a bit...although you could have just asked "Why are you giving the Sargent a power fist"

Self defense? Did you bring Shrike or Kantor? Just want to try assaulting with them? there's a bunch of reasons to bring a fist, which one it is will probably determine which gun you should exchange for it. If it's just for self defense though, I'm seeing the light, exchange the pistol for it. Then you can still take a combi-weapon if you want.

Fetterkey wrote:1) Are you using Combat Tactics or Chapter Tactics?

2) Why are you giving your Sergeant a power fist?

I'm using Combat Tactics, but I am familiar with the argument about whether to arm the sergeant with a power fist in the first place (and yes the squad is Rhino mounted). I chose a power fist because 25-30 extra points are hard to spend on worthwhile upgrades at low point value games, and I thought I'd try out the power fist sergeant myself to see what he can do. I have to say that he looks a lot cooler with a power fist than just a bolter.

giving him a storm bolter solves the lost extra attack, sure its 10 more points, but its 2 shots which you can assault afterwards.

Fetterkey wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:1) Are you using Combat Tactics or Chapter Tactics?

2) Why are you giving your Sergeant a power fist?

Not this again... there is no need to derail another thread with this discussion.

I'm actually asking so I can give better advice, as these factors influence how the model is used and thus how he should be equipped.

Please don't derail this thread!

G

As a tau player, I have found the power fist to be infuriating to deal with in TAC squads. One of the SM players at my local gaming store runs a drop pod MOTF army, usually 3-4 ironclads and 3-4 TAC squads all in drop pods. All his sergeants have power fists and it disrupts my plans a lot. This stops me from sending my crisis suits into melee with them. Against a non Pfist squad, My crisis commander attached to a 3 man squad can shoot and assault, and usually utterly destroy non melee MEQ without power weapons. A pfist ruins this because I can't go into melee with something that will ignore armor and instant death. It adds a huge risk factor to the squad, and makes your opponent much more wary of going into melee.

If you are going to outfit your sgt with a CC weapon, i'd go
1.pf + boltgun/combi/stormbolter or
2.pw + boltpistol/plasma pistol IMO.

Fetterkey wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:1) Are you using Combat Tactics or Chapter Tactics?

2) Why are you giving your Sergeant a power fist?

Not this again... there is no need to derail another thread with this discussion.

I'm actually asking so I can give better advice, as these factors influence how the model is used and thus how he should be equipped.

Sorry... I just thought this was about to go down the path of the other threads. But yeah, you're right on how it depends on how he plans to use them.

Green Blow Fly wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

I'm actually asking so I can give better advice, as these factors influence how the model is used and thus how he should be equipped.

Please don't derail this thread!

G

Please dont tell other people what to do. He's on topic and I was curious too.

Storm Bolter

I didn't think you could give normal tactical squad sargents a storm bolter...