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I'm curious as to what people's preferences on hull weapons are. While you'll likely get more shots off over the course of a game with a heavy bolter, a heavy flamer is something to be feared, and will keep infantry a distance away from the vehicles.

I see that people generally agree to use heavy flamers on chimeras, but I'm not sure about other vehicles.

I'm running heavy flamers on my chimeras (except for one, which is for the PBS - they should be kept at their maximum range, IMO). My hydras, LRBT with plasma sponsons, and Manticore all boast heavy bolters. I'm thinking of swapping the manticore to a heavy flamer since it can't fire both the same turn anyway and it might discourage assaults. Other tanks are there for shooting from out in the open, so the bolters are for more dakka.


What do you guys think? Heavy bolter or heavy flamer? What about lascannons on heavier tanks?

Lascannons on a Russ hull are a waste of points. A Russ with 3 HB and a battle cannon is the most flexible option.

I preffer to use heavy flamers on my MANY chimeras, as they are used to close the distance and annihilate light infintry. However, I use heavy bolters on my Demolishers (I have 9) as they have the Lumbering Behemoth rule so can fire all weapons. I find heavy bolters to be very good weapons to wittle down the enemies squads as you approach.

Heavy flamers can also prove to be very effective if used on basilisks or other artillery pieces. Often times i will run a few basilisks, my opopnet will infiltrate a squad within its minimum range, the basilisks will roast them if there is no other unit to protect them, and the crisis is averted.

To answer the question, take heavy flamers on chimeras and sometimes artillery, and heavy bolters on everything else.

Brother Gideon wrote:I preffer to use heavy flamers on my MANY chimeras, as they are used to close the distance and annihilate light infintry. However, I use heavy bolters on my Demolishers (I have 9) as they have the Lumbering Behemoth rule so can fire all weapons. I find heavy bolters to be very good weapons to wittle down the enemies squads as you approach.

Heavy flamers can also prove to be very effective if used on basilisks or other artillery pieces. Often times i will run a few basilisks, my opopnet will infiltrate a squad within its minimum range, the basilisks will roast them if there is no other unit to protect them, and the crisis is averted.

To answer the question, take heavy flamers on chimeras and sometimes artillery, and heavy bolters on everything else.

I hate to break it to you but you've read the Lumbering Behemoth rule incorrectly.

"A Leman Russ that remained stationary or moved at combat speed may fire its turret weapon in addition to any weapons it is normally allowed to fire, even if that turret weapon is ordnance."

That means if you stay still, you can fire your Demolisher Cannon and all three Heavy Bolters. If you move up to 6" you may fire your Demolisher Cannon and a single Heavy Bolter (since HB are S5). If you move more than 6" you may not fire anything.

Aside from that, I agree. Heavy Flamers are always worth it on Chimeras since you already have a great long range weapon (the multi-laser) and you'll never be able to fire both unless you stay still (highly unlikely unless you're immobilized). They are also useful for the reasons you've mentioned with artillery but that's situational. I tend to just go with the HB on my Manticore and Medusas since I protect them with troops and chimeras.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:

Brother Gideon wrote:I preffer to use heavy flamers on my MANY chimeras, as they are used to close the distance and annihilate light infintry. However, I use heavy bolters on my Demolishers (I have 9) as they have the Lumbering Behemoth rule so can fire all weapons. I find heavy bolters to be very good weapons to wittle down the enemies squads as you approach.

Heavy flamers can also prove to be very effective if used on basilisks or other artillery pieces. Often times i will run a few basilisks, my opopnet will infiltrate a squad within its minimum range, the basilisks will roast them if there is no other unit to protect them, and the crisis is averted.

To answer the question, take heavy flamers on chimeras and sometimes artillery, and heavy bolters on everything else.

I hate to break it to you but you've read the Lumbering Behemoth rule incorrectly.

"A Leman Russ that remained stationary or moved at combat speed may fire its turret weapon in addition to any weapons it is normally allowed to fire, even if that turret weapon is ordnance."

That means if you stay still, you can fire your Demolisher Cannon and all three Heavy Bolters. If you move up to 6" you may fire your Demolisher Cannon and a single Heavy Bolter (since HB are S5). If you move more than 6" you may not fire anything.

Aside from that, I agree. Heavy Flamers are always worth it on Chimeras since you already have a great long range weapon (the multi-laser) and you'll never be able to fire both unless you stay still (highly unlikely unless you're immobilized). They are also useful for the reasons you've mentioned with artillery but that's situational. I tend to just go with the HB on my Manticore and Medusas since I protect them with troops and chimeras.

DoW

I understand the rule, but i effed up when i wrote it. oops.

I run naked demolishers with no sponsons, so i consider that firring all weapons.

Oh no worries, I think I jumped to conclusions when I read 'heavy bolters' thinking you meant three on a single demolisher, rather than one on all your demolishers!

All is understood now.

DoW

Heavy Flamer is the way to go period. They are really good against assaulty hordes like Orks and tyranids.

On Chimeras you can't move and fire more then one weapon because the Multi laser is strength 6 and a heavy bolter is strength 5 so might as well have the Heavy Flamer for close up work.

For Leman Russ Executioners which are the only type I run the Heavy Flamer is best because the las cannon is bs3 and costs 15 points and the heavy bolter allows for wound stacking of the ap2 wounds from plasma.

I purpose-build my tanks. For tank killers (i.e. vanquishers for med to long range, demolishers for close range) I will stick a lascannon on the hull for an additional anti-armor shot at good range. For general purpose tanks, however, I will either do the heavy bolter with the like-sponsons, or a trio of heavy flamers. Again, it just depends on which tank I am taking and what will best complement its role.

Example: Leman Russ Demolisher (Tankbuster)
+multi-melta sponsons
+lascannon

This gives me a close-to-mid range anti-tank platform that can destroy other targets of opportunity in a close-quarters environment (read: cityfights).

Example: Leman Russ Vanquisher (Tanksniper)
+Lascannon
+Pask

This tank is extremely effective against enemy armor in the mid-to-long range. 72" main cannon that acts similar to a meltagun, plus a lascannon, with Pask's increased BS, is sure to pop some tanks.

Example: Leman Russ Punisher (Hordekiller)
+HB sponsons
+Heavy bolter hull

This tank is kinda spendy, but it is the intimidation factor that really makes this variant special. With the 3 heavy bolters, that brings this tanks S5 shots up to 29. Add on a 10 point pintile mounted stubber for 10 points more to get a platform that literally spews lead.

pun+HB x3 +H stuber= kills hord
van+las = kills tanks
exe+plasma+las+pask= kills everything (even your stuff with some bad drift)

as for chimeras, HF for melta vets/flamer PCS
HB for AC IS

Heavy Bolters. The only one I would use a lascannon on is Pask in a Vanquisher.

Most vehicles, hull heavy flamer. This goes for Chimeras (theyre more likely to be upfield against appropriate targets) and artillery (more likely to be in backfield corners - hence having to deal with outflankers so the HF is an insurance policy).

Vehicles that sit back and shoot anti-infantry shots from long range, take the hull heavy bolter by all means. This is basically Hydras.

Vehicles that advance and throw out anti-infantry shooting (demolisher, punisher, etc), take the hull heavy flamer.

Vanquisher is an odd role for Guard. Long range anti-tank. A Vanquisher is about the only time I can see using a hull lascannon.

Basically if you're likely to be near the enemy, take the hull heavy flamer. If you're not, take the heavy bolter.

I also find that if the vehicle is worth taking the hull heavy bolter, it's also worth putting a pintle heavy stubber on it. The exception being if the PHS shots will let them double-stack wounds from a "better" weapon system on the same vehicle. Doesnt happen often so usually not a problem.

Heavy stubber seems too expensive for my tastes. I can better spend those points elsewhere.

Otherwise I agree, heavy flamers on Chimeras and artillery and heavy bolters on gunwagons.

Funny, I was just having this conversation today.

Whenever I get a codex, I boil everything down to the "best" configuration. Then I end up spamming that configuration of unit. It is always inefficient, but usually devastating to one type of enemy unit or another. Then I find out what the 'comfortable' numbers of that particular config I need, then I'll incorporate an alt config for additional iterations of the unit.

This has led me to slightly rethink the hull heavy flamer. On my mechvets, it is still hull heavy flamer all the way. They are constantly moving for both offensive and defensive reasons. their weapons all have an effecitve range of 12" and they are either shooting land raiders or hard hitting heavy infantry. Alternately, they are maneuvering towards an objective, one that might be claimed by stealthed troops choices.

The same goes for my company command squads. they are packed to the gills with meltas or plasmas and are usually sent on near suicidal missions, always supporting my mechvets. they get hull heavy flamers as well.

That gives me around 5 hull heavy flamers, which in my experience has been ample, especially considering I've been running two banewolves with hull heavy flamers as well. Heavy bolters can reach out and work on enemy gunlines or armies that don't have an assault threat to your vehicles, and I'm fairly certain my psyker battle squad chimera will end up with a heavy bolter very soon.

Also, in infantry platoon based mech armies, like darkwynn's leafblower, you are often firing a single heavy weapon out of the top of a chimera, in that case a heavy bolter will come into its own more often, and you will have ample infantry units to screen PCS and infantry chimeras from charges, they won't block LOS so the low angled heavy bolter will have open fields of fire to chatter away.

As always, my musings are subject to change after my butt gets kicked, but here is my new chimera equipment list.

CCS 4x special weapons gets heavy flamer
veterans with 3x specials and no heavy get heavy flamer
PCS 4x flamers gets a heavy flamer
infantry squads with heavy weapon get a heavy bolter
PCS with heavy weapon get a heavy bolter
PBS get a heavy bolter
storm troopers get a heavy flamer (scouting heavy flamer vehicle should be obvious)

As for the artillery, it is much more simple, and I've been sticking with the same rules of thumb since april.

hydra gets heavy bolter (it doesn't want to move anyway, and fires long range anti-infantry/light vehicle)
manticore gets heavy flamer (can't fire both if stationary, only loses the indirect option if it moves, deters assaults)
griffon gets heavy bolter (can't move and fire, if you've got LOS the heavy bolter can contribute)
medusa gets a heavy flamer (big blast is ordnance so can't be fired with another weapon, small blast is so focused anti-tank, that adding a heavy flamer gives you more flexibility)
colossus (depends on if its ordnance or not, I don't remember, if it isn't ordnance, then see griffon, if it is.. see basilisk)
basilisk gets a heavy flamer (ordnance shot means you won't be firing it in addition to the heavy bolter, so might as well deter assaults)

As for leman russes, I have 3 of each turret, and then three of each of these configurations (which i find to be the only logical configs)

single heavy bolter
triple heavy bolter
single lascannon
heavy bolter/plasma cannons
lascannon/multi-meltas (barely makes my list. Really just there in case I write some list with no melta, and for apocalypse with a vanquisher turret)

I contemplated single heavy flamer for a long time as a viable option. But for most of the russes, you really want to stay way back. they are almost unkillable from long range. But get frighteningly fragile (especially in squadron form) up close. Thanks to lumbering behemoth, there are plenty of opportunities to fire off that heavy bolter, which increases your overall long range output. Demolishers and punishers really want to get in close, but I've found that while running them, I tended to want sponsons, and once you've splurged on sponsons, you won't ever consider moving to get a turret shot and a heavy flamer, when you can rotate, fire two plasmas and a heavy bolter or three heavy bolters and the turret.

hope that was helpful, if a bit long