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An argument came up in our local area, in which how does Sweeping Advance work against WBB.

Sweeping Advances specify:

If the winner’s total is equal or greater they catch the fleeing enemy with a sweeping advance. The falling back unit is destroyed. We assume that the already demoralised foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or sent packing, its members left either dead, wounded and captured, or at best fleeing and hiding. The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

I don't have the exact wording of the WBB rules, but it says to the effect that "if the model is wounded, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, (etc.)" then you follow the normal rules for WBB.

To further add to the issue, the current version of the Necron FAQ does not address this issue.

So looking at the RAW it was determined that if a Necron unit was caught in a Sweeping Advance, they would just fall down, rather then have the whole unit removed. Afterwards the downed Necrons are still subject to all the normal rules for WBB.

I am posting this to see what people think, as this was news to me.

"Otherwise specified" would mean a new rule which explicitly overrides Sweeping Advance.

"no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage". That's the relevant clause. WBB doesn't work against Sweeping Advance.

And Mahu, if you do a search you should find several other threads discussing this same topic.


Personally I don't understand why this should even be in a FAQ, but that's just me.

WBB is a special rule that would prevent the unit from being destroyed by a sweeping advance and the sweeping advance rules specifically deny special rules from doing just that.

In addition, none of the conditions for WBB are met - no wounds are dealt, and the models are removed from the game, not removed as a casualty.

For me, the "unless otherwise specified" means that the rule in question would have to specifically address Sweeping Advance in order to provide some sort of protection from elimination for the unit in question.

Lacking that specific reference, I don't believe WBB would qualify as a protection from being swept.

WBB does not work against Sweeping Advance.

This is what the rules say.

How you play it is up to you.

If you have a unit of warriors nearby or a T. Spider within 12" and more warriors on the board, then any of the Necrons actually killed in the combat before sweeping takes place, can WBB. As long as the warriors werent killed by power weapons. Im pretty sure that is how it is played.

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:If you have a unit of warriors nearby or a T. Spider within 12" and more warriors on the board, then any of the Necrons actually killed in the combat before sweeping takes place, can WBB. As long as the warriors werent killed by power weapons. Im pretty sure that is how it is played.

Nope. The Downed necrons are removed as well.

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:If you have a unit of warriors nearby or a T. Spider within 12" and more warriors on the board, then any of the Necrons actually killed in the combat before sweeping takes place, can WBB. As long as the warriors werent killed by power weapons. Im pretty sure that is how it is played.

Downed necrons are still a part of the unit, as evidenced by the monolith teleport and the fact that downed models will "keep up" with their unit if it fails a morale check. As the whole unit is removed, the downed models don't get a chance to use their WBB.

What was thrown in my face though was "Codex > Rulebook". The WBB rules are specific in "otherwise removed as a casualty" which is what Sweeping Advance does.

So the argument is that the WBB rules take precedence because it is a codex rule. I am not saying a agree with it, I am just saying what the argument is.

Mahu wrote:What was thrown in my face though was "Codex > Rulebook". The WBB rules are specific in "otherwise removed as a casualty" which is what Sweeping Advance does.

So the argument is that the WBB rules take precedence because it is a codex rule. I am not saying a agree with it, I am just saying what the argument is.

No, Codex Does not Trump Rulebook. Specific Trumps General. Sweeping Advance Trumps WBB because WBB does not say it works against Sweeping Advance.

Sweeping advance does not remove models as casualties. It removes the unit from the game. Remove as a casualty is a defined phrase (page 27 iirc) and is only used when directly specified.

So Necron units that are down are "moved" with their unit if it say fails a morale check. That seems odd. I have never played this way. I just played if the models were down and their unit moved over 6" away the models would not get a WBB. That may be the way it is supposed to be played but it doesnt seem right. If another unit is nearby, why couldnt models absorb into it via WBB after a melee? Is it in the FAQ? GWAR I know you are usually right on these issues Im just looking for the text that says warriors killed during the melee are swept as well as what is remaining.

I don't quite remember where I read the failed morale running part, it may be in the FAQ or the second printing of the codex.

The text is that the unit is removed, and downed Necrons are still part of the unit.

Yeah downed Necrons are "sort of" that unit. I dont know when they leave the unit. If you obliterate a squad but another allows WBB. The downed models are absorbed into the new squad. Effectively a downed Necron has no unit. It is absorbed by the closest unit of its type. Although rare, it may be another unit than the original. But melee is a tricky situation because you are calculating morale and melee results by downed models so maybe they are removed. I guess I never looked into it. I always played it once the models were down, they sat their and in the following turn I just looked for WBB criteria. If no criteria were met, remove models. The unit being swept away did not effect the downed models since they were inactive until the WBB part of the game. Just how I played it but I have played other rules wrong.

They are still part of the unit - as it does not say otherwise until they succeed in WBB; they just do not follow coherency stipulations. Which is actually non-existant now as that only matters in the movement phase, iirc.

Downed necron models leave their unit when they fail their WBB saves, join another unit after their parent unit is completely downed, or in the rare case where a second unit has living models closer than it's parent unit.

Looking at the FAQ, the first entry in the second column of the first page references the downed-necron-falling-back rule.

Well thanks for the update. Looks like the rule will hurt me if a unit is swept, but help me if I fail a morale chaeck as I could replenish numbers to pull the unit over 50% for regrouping. I will have to start playing accordingly.

Just so I understand, is the argument that "removing Casulties" require a wound to be caused? I have checked the rule book and don't see that specific reference.

If that is the case, I guess you could also argue Necrons don't get WBB from Jaws of the World Wolf either.

They do not.

WBB does not work against JotWW.

They do from Lukas' last laugh, however.

/shrug

Indeed they do.

Mahu wrote:Just so I understand, is the argument that "removing Casulties" require a wound to be caused? I have checked the rule book and don't see that specific reference.

If that is the case, I guess you could also argue Necrons don't get WBB from Jaws of the World Wolf either.

If an attack kills without wounding, it has to say remove as a casualty. JoWW denies WBB, as does failing a Death or Glory! attack. Gift of Chaos is an example of a woundless attack that does let you WBB.

Whether or not JotWW interacts with WBB I think comes down to the kill points argument.

If you use JotWW to remove the a Necron Lord from play, do you expect to receive a kill point for that unit? You only get kill points for units which have been destroyed, and if JotWW just puts the model into some Limbo "removed from play" state, then the last unit in the model hasn't been destroyed, it's just "removed from play". If the unit is destroyed so that a kill point is given up, then by definition that single model unit was removed as a casualty, so WBB applies since JotWW doesn't cause any of the effects which would prevent it such as Instant Death.

JoWW doesn't cause any of the effects that would allow WBB to take place. No wounds are dealt, and remove from play != remove as a casualty.

solkan wrote:Whether or not JotWW interacts with WBB I think comes down to the kill points argument.

If you use JotWW to remove the a Necron Lord from play, do you expect to receive a kill point for that unit? You only get kill points for units which have been destroyed, and if JotWW just puts the model into some Limbo "removed from play" state, then the last unit in the model hasn't been destroyed, it's just "removed from play". If the unit is destroyed so that a kill point is given up, then by definition that single model unit was removed as a casualty, so WBB applies since JotWW doesn't cause any of the effects which would prevent it such as Instant Death.

lolwut?

That's a first for me.

Gwar! wrote:

Mahu wrote:What was thrown in my face though was "Codex > Rulebook". The WBB rules are specific in "otherwise removed as a casualty" which is what Sweeping Advance does.

So the argument is that the WBB rules take precedence because it is a codex rule. I am not saying a agree with it, I am just saying what the argument is.

No, Codex Does not Trump Rulebook. Specific Trumps General. Sweeping Advance Trumps WBB because WBB does not say it works against Sweeping Advance.

I'm really not convinced by this argument. Is a general rule in the main rulebook more specific than a codex rule, just because it says that the models cannot be saved by any (notice the general wording) special rule?

As for the argument that models are not casualties, why are any models taken off the table if this is true? It says that the unit is removed, but where is the rule saying that you remove a unit by removing all of its models, somehow without killing any models?

thebetter1 wrote:I'm really not convinced by this argument. Is a general rule in the main rulebook more specific than a codex rule, just because it says that the models cannot be saved by any (notice the general wording) special rule?

What part of "Unless otherwise Specified" is general?

Seriously, if you are going to make an argument, don't ignore half the rule please.

The full rule is this:
Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

thebetter1 wrote:Is a general rule in the main rulebook more specific than a codex rule, just because it says that the models cannot be saved by any (notice the general wording) special rule?

If the rulebook rule says that special rules don't apply, why should the Necron's special rule apply?