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Ive never used grots or big guns (grots only the other night on that skirmish game) and I plan on taking some big gunz in my lists. Heres my questions.
1. The big gunz have an armor value, and a 2 grot crew at least. Now heres this question, does my opponent have to blow up the guns first to hit the grots? OR are the grots free game? Im thinking they are free game as the guns arnt a transport or anything of that nature. But Id like to be certain.
2. If said grot crew it blown up/killed, can an actual grot squad come in and take over as the crew if the gunz are still there?

KingCracker wrote:Ive never used grots or big guns (grots only the other night on that skirmish game) and I plan on taking some big gunz in my lists. Heres my questions.
1. The big gunz have an armor value, and a 2 grot crew at least. Now heres this question, does my opponent have to blow up the guns first to hit the grots? OR are the grots free game? Im thinking they are free game as the guns arnt a transport or anything of that nature. But Id like to be certain.
2. If said grot crew it blown up/killed, can an actual grot squad come in and take over as the crew if the gunz are still there?

Aren't they artillery? There are rules for that in the main rulebook.

edit: Yep, they are. Pg55 BRB quickly answers both questions.

They probably are, but I left my rule book at my brothers house the other night lol. So I cant look it up

KingCracker wrote:They probably are, but I left my rule book at my brothers house the other night lol. So I cant look it up

Well, quick answers:
1. You roll to see what you hit when you shoot at them, 4- is a gun hit, 5+ is a crewman.
2. The guns are removed immediately when their crews are killed.

Kill All the crew, gun goes as well.
Kill the gun on ANY glance or pen. Don't need to roll result - if you glance or pen it, it's dead.
Don't kill all the crew, gun is fine to keep firing.

adding to the people above

Guns are AV10 but are auto destroyed by any glancing or penetrating hits (no need to roll on the damage table)

Any one in the unit that guns were bought with (including the BS2 ork) can fire the artillery piece. Also you only need to remove the artillary pieces once all crew are dead. You could have a single ork with all the guns.

Any one not firing an artillery gun may shoot there own gun this may be at another target (this includes any IC that may have joined them)

edit Ninja-ed

IC's that join artillery don't count as crew. It's a good place to hide a big mek with a shock attack gun.

orkcommander wrote: It's a good place to hide a big mek with a shock attack gun.

Only if you're playing someone who doesn't mind you using a loophole to your advantage.

Regardless of what the rules say, I suspect that most players would include joined ICs as 'crewmen' for the sake of shooting at the unit, since it's pretty obvious that the rule is there to stop ICs with a higher BS from joining the unit and firing the guns, rather than to make them unkillable.

insaniak wrote:

orkcommander wrote: It's a good place to hide a big mek with a shock attack gun.

Only if you're playing someone who doesn't mind you using a loophole to your advantage.

Regardless of what the rules say, I suspect that most players would include joined ICs as 'crewmen' for the sake of shooting at the unit, since it's pretty obvious that the rule is there to stop ICs with a higher BS from joining the unit and firing the guns, rather than to make them unkillable.

Yep, what i do insaniak, is roll 5-6 and then you allocate the wounds as normal to models with wounds. Like most of 40k you need to add little bits to make it work. But I think OrkCommander meant it was a good place since he could shoot his Shock attack gun at a different target then the artillery guns.

Insaniak,
I don't see how it could possibly be construed as being a loop hole. The Rules on pg 55 of the rulebook specifically mention that attached Independant Characters can fire at a different target than the big gunz. I don't know of any other unit in the game that uses the artillery rules besides the big gunz unit. So it seems obvious to me that is exactly what they intended for you to do. How can you call it a loop hole?

You want a loop hole? Dark eldar -Attach Vect - a ravager who is an independant character and a vehicle to a squad of mandrakes in cover and give him a 2+ cover save to all shooting! Ok forget this, I was wrong. hehe

greenskinned git wrote:I don't see how it could possibly be construed as being a loop hole. The Rules on pg 55 of the rulebook specifically mention that attached Independant Characters can fire at a different target than the big gunz. I don't know of any other unit in the game that uses the artillery rules besides the big gunz unit.

Thunderfire Cannons and Eldar Support Platforms

So it seems obvious to me that is exactly what they intended for you to do.

Oh, my apologies Alessio/Mat/Andy/Graham/Phil/Gav/Adam/Robin/Jervis/Jeremy, I didn't know you had a Dakka Account!

You want a loop hole? Dark eldar -Attach Vect - a ravager who is an independant character and a vehicle to a squad of mandrakes in cover and give him a 2+ cover save to all shooting!

Alessio/Mat/Andy/Graham/Phil/Gav/Adam/Robin/Jervis/Jeremy, what are you smoking and can I have some please?

If you read the codex, you will see that Asdrubael Vect has a special rule that says "He will never join another unit." (And I didn't even bold that, the codex does!)

Gwar,
I'll give you the other points, but you are agreeing then that it's a loophole? A rule that states clearly and specifically that independant characters that are attached can fire at other targets than the gunz, sure doesn't seem vague or loopholey to me, but perhaps with your direct line to codex writers that you seem to enjoy quoting, you know that it wasn't intended to work that way...

I didn't think Eldar platforms counted as artillery. It's been a while since I played someone who used them, but I'm pretty certain that the hits weren't being randomized between guardians and guns.

greenskinned git wrote:Gwar,
I'll give you the other points, but you are agreeing then that it's a loophole? A rule that states clearly and specifically that independant characters that are attached can fire at other targets than the gunz, sure doesn't seem vague or loopholey to me, but perhaps with your direct line to codex writers that you seem to enjoy quoting, you know that it wasn't intended to work that way...

I personally don't care if it is a loophole or not, what I do take exception to is someone stating "This is obviously the intent", when they are not Alessio/Mat/Andy/Graham/Phil/Gav/Adam/Robin/Jervis/Jeremy. I think what insaniak is suggesting is that it is a loophole to claim that since they are not crew, they cannot be hit.

greenskinned git wrote:I didn't think Eldar platforms counted as artillery. It's been a while since I played someone who used them, but I'm pretty certain that the hits weren't being randomized between guardians and guns.

Guardian Platforms are not, but the Support Weapon Batteries (Heavy Support FoC) are.

Err Greenskinned git you do realise that Insaniak was talking about the who's hit loop hole .... 1-4 is a gun hit, 5-6 the crew is hit. No mention of IC so they can't be hit. As you'll note I play that they're part of the unit so can be allocated wounds from those that effect the crew as normal.

greenskinned git wrote:Is see what you did there. Are you Insaniak? You seem to be saying this is the intent of what Insaniak said......

I was just questioning why insaniak believes it to be a loop hole, before all this sidetrack nonsense. Although going back I think see what he thought the loop whole was, and it's not what I was argueing against. Silly me.

HAHA.

Yes, in case you didn't notice, I said "I THINK insaniak is saying this", not "It is obvious what insaniak is saying and thus imply if you disagree with me you are an idiot".

greenskinned git wrote:Insaniak,
I don't see how it could possibly be construed as being a loop hole. The Rules on pg 55 of the rulebook specifically mention that attached Independant Characters can fire at a different target than the big gunz.

As others have pointed out by now, I took the comment that you could 'hide' a SAG in the Artillery unit as meaning that he was taking advantage of the rules technically not allowing joined ICs to be hit by enemy shooting.

That's the loophole, not the ability to shoot at a different target.