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Ok, so the Tau flechette dischargers sparked my interest in this. I thought we could hold some discussions on the rulings people don't think are well thought out in the INAT FAQ. I don't want to start any flame wars, but I think with Adepticon around the corner, maybe we can influence the writers of said FAQ or at least give them ideas on their current rulings.

So this thread is just a starting board for rulings people think are incorrect in said FAQ. After we get a couple, if people are interested, we can start having discussions on why they ruled the way they did, and discussions on whether the community is correct.

If you have any ideas to improve upon my original idea, feel free to share those as well.

(again, this thread isn't for arguing said rules, just for bringing them up)

God No! You'll have the deffrollas in here! Run while you can!

One thing I am hoping to avoid. Obviously its been answered and we have heard both sides of said argument. I was hoping for lesser known rulings and such. Like flechette dischargers, DA apothecaries ect ect

Heh. TBH, the INAT FAQ is full of Rules Changes disguised as clarifications. And to be fair, the DA Apothecary is labelled as a Rules Change.

I don't particularly care though, it's better than anything GW or you have come out with

I'm not saying its not. I am just saying some of these issues rules changes or "clarifications" maybe should be discussed by a larger community as new arguments may arise.

Just because something is well done, doesn't mean it can't be improved.

Timmah wrote:I'm not saying its not. I am just saying some of these issues rules changes or "clarifications" maybe should be discussed by a larger community as new arguments may arise.

Just because something is well done, doesn't mean it can't be improved.

http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/inat/INATFAQv3.0.pdf

Pg. 80 wrote:TAU.30E.01 – Q: In Annihilation missions, do vehicle
TAU.30I.01 – Q: When a vehicle with Landing Gear
‘lands’ can (or must) a player remove the model’s
flight base?
A: If the vehicle’s flight base isn’t glued in place a player
must remove the model’s base when it lands. If the flight
base is glued in place then the Skimmer may not use its
Landing Gear [rules change].
Ref: RB.03B.03

Pg 82 wrote:TAU.36B.01 – Q: Can a Devilfish be taken as a stand-
alone Troops choice without a unit to transport?
A: No [clarification]

What a load of arbitrary b.s.


I find it very interesting also that Space Marine units such as the two listed below, don't count for two KP, while Tau drones that detach from vehicles do.

SM.89.01 – Q: Is Chronus worth a Kill Point if he
manages to escape his vehicle?
A: Chronus’s vehicle is worth 1 Kill Point and Chronus himself
is worth another Kill Point if (and only if) he manages to
escape and is later killed [clarification].

SM.73A.01 – Q: If a Thunderfire Cannon is destroyed
does then killing the Techmarine earn an extra Kill
Point?
A: No, the unit is only worth one Kill Point total when both
models are killed/destroyed [clarification].

Che-Vito wrote:

Pg 82 wrote:TAU.36B.01 – Q: Can a Devilfish be taken as a stand- alone Troops choice without a unit to transport?
A: No [clarification]

How is this Arbitrary? Devilfish cannot be taken as Troops, just like how Rhinos cannot.

Che-Vito wrote:
I find it very interesting also that Space Marine units such as the two listed below, don't count for two KP, while Tau drones that detach from vehicles do.

SM.89.01 – Q: Is Chronus worth a Kill Point if he
manages to escape his vehicle?
A: Chronus’s vehicle is worth 1 Kill Point and Chronus himself
is worth another Kill Point if (and only if) he manages to
escape and is later killed [clarification].

Eh?

kirsanth wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:
I find it very interesting also that Space Marine units such as the two listed below, don't count for two KP, while Tau drones that detach from vehicles do.

SM.89.01 – Q: Is Chronus worth a Kill Point if he
manages to escape his vehicle?
A: Chronus’s vehicle is worth 1 Kill Point and Chronus himself
is worth another Kill Point if (and only if) he manages to
escape and is later killed [clarification].

Eh?

I was about to say that too ;D

I was going to post yours as well.

Great minds think alike

Okay, I'll bite:

Che-Vito wrote:

Pg 82 wrote:TAU.36B.01 – Q: Can a Devilfish be taken as a stand-
alone Troops choice without a unit to transport?
A: No [clarification]

Yeah, they're really holding Tau back with that one. Now all those sneaky Imperial Guard players who flood their troops choices with stand alone Chimeras can just roll right up and... oh, wait, they don't work that way for anyone else? Rhinos either huh? Oh.. nevermind.

Che-Vito wrote:

SM.89.01 – Q: Is Chronus worth a Kill Point if he
manages to escape his vehicle?
A: Chronus’s vehicle is worth 1 Kill Point and Chronus himself
is worth another Kill Point if (and only if) he manages to
escape and is later killed [clarification].

SM.73A.01 – Q: If a Thunderfire Cannon is destroyed
does then killing the Techmarine earn an extra Kill
Point?
A: No, the unit is only worth one Kill Point total when both
models are killed/destroyed [clarification].

I'm not incredibly familiar with either of these units, however, I'm guessing the difference is that one gives up a KP because it's an upgrade character, and the other doesn't because it's not? Are tau drones a retinue? Are they an upgrade?

Che-Vito wrote:TAU.30I.01 – Q: When a vehicle with Landing Gear
‘lands’ can (or must) a player remove the model’s
flight base?
A: If the vehicle’s flight base isn’t glued in place a player
must remove the model’s base when it lands. If the flight
base is glued in place then the Skimmer may not use its
Landing Gear [rules change].
Ref: RB.03B.03

I would suspect that ruling is there for LOS reasons. But really, landing gear is so near to useless in 5th edition that it's not a big issue anyway.

TAU.36B.01 – Q: Can a Devilfish be taken as a stand-
alone Troops choice without a unit to transport?
A: No [clarification]

Not sure what's arbitrary about that. The Devilfish is a Transport unit. It can't be taken by itself. Whilst the Tau codex is a bit less clear on that, it's standard in every codex that units listed as Transports (as opposed to simply vehicles with a Transport capacity... I'm referring to those listed under the heading: Transport) are only available as unit upgrades, not separately.

I find it very interesting also that Space Marine units such as the two listed below, don't count for two KP, while Tau drones that detach from vehicles do.

I suspect that the difference considered by the INAT team was that the Drones are always considered as a separate unit, and so count for the extra KP. Whereas Chronus is a part of the vehicle until it is destroyed, and the Tech and TF form a single unit until they separate. The Drones are considered passengers, rather than a part of the vehicle unit.

the INAT faq link is down

Err guys, Chronus and tank ARE worth 2 KP with the INAT FAQ. That was why I posted above. Well, one of the times.

kirsanth wrote:Err guys, Chronus and tank ARE worth 2 KP with the INAT FAQ. That was why I posted above. Well, one of the times.

Yeah, that wasn't too clear to me either. I thought what he was saying was that the two rulings were inconsistant. Then I reread it after posting and realized that he was saying that the two rulings were inconsistent and that they did not match up with how the Tau situation worked per the below statement.

Che-Vito wrote:I find it very interesting also that Space Marine units such as the two listed below, don't count for two KP, while Tau drones that detach from vehicles do.

Apologies if I'm just perpetuating the confusion; I'm just trying to rationalize what I'm reading.

If he escapes. If he is destroyed with the vehicle, they're one kill point... because they're one unit.

Happens to the best of us.

I miss a lot too. One of the fun parts about posting here, odds are someone will call you on it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:If he escapes. If he is destroyed with the vehicle, they're one kill point... because they're one unit.

Is that not true of the drones as well, though?

Or am I missing something?

Ok, once again, I'd rather not start any rules debates in here. (I know that's tough for some of you)

I will make threads as issues arise and we can keep this thread concise.

So far, we have what is the difference between the thunderfire cannon and things like chronus, drones ect.

Timmah wrote:Ok, so the Tau flechette dischargers sparked my interest in this. I thought we could hold some discussions on the rulings people don't think are well thought out in the INAT FAQ. I don't want to start any flame wars, but I think with Adepticon around the corner, maybe we can influence the writers of said FAQ or at least give them ideas on their current rulings.

So this thread is just a starting board for rulings people think are incorrect in said FAQ. After we get a couple, if people are interested, we can start having discussions on why they ruled the way they did, and discussions on whether the community is correct.

If you have any ideas to improve upon my original idea, feel free to share those as well.

(again, this thread isn't for arguing said rules, just for bringing them up)

Sounds good.

If you think a ruling is poor, the best thing is to present the argument of why you think it is bad. I can then try to give you some insight into why the ruling got made the way it did. If you can convince me that the ruling should be changed (which has happened many, many times) then I can do my best to bring that argument back to the rest of the council and try to get them to change their minds.

Another good idea is to run a 'how do you play it poll' regarding a situation you think we've ruled wrong. If a BIG majority of players tend to play the situation the opposite of how we ruled, then again, that's valuable information that can be used to potentially change the ruling.


For the flechette discharger, I'm pretty familiar with the argument for and against what we ruled, so the best idea would be to run a 'how do you play it' thread which includes the flechette discharger rules along with the squadron vehicle rules text and see how most people think it should be played. If we're way off the mark on how people play it (which we could well be), then it would be great information to have.

I think the Vendetta being allowed to outflank with Vets inside wasn't the right decision. Yes, I know I've been shouted down before, but still.



The rules for what can Outflank are clearly listed. Also, the ability for a unit to bring it's dedicated transport. Nowhere does it mention that Vehicles convey the ability to outflank on the squad inside. This has been my argument from the beginning.

The response: The Vets inside are NOT outflanking, they are just along for the ride in the Vendetta, which IS outflanking.


My response: There are only a couple of ways to enter play from reserves. 1. Deep Strike. 2. Outflank. 3. Moving onto the table from your own rear table edge. In a nutshell, the Vets MUST be doing one of these things to be deployed legally. So if they ARE NOT Outflanking, then what are they doing?


Figured I'd try one more time.



Clay

Gwar! wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Pg 82 wrote:TAU.36B.01 – Q: Can a Devilfish be taken as a stand- alone Troops choice without a unit to transport?
A: No [clarification]

How is this Arbitrary? Devilfish cannot be taken as Troops, just like how Rhinos cannot.

Well, in the Tau codex RAW, Devilfish CAN be bought as Troops choices. Does it make a big difference? No.
But this is not a clarification, rather a rules change, and a rather arbitrary one at that.

kirsanth wrote:Err guys, Chronus and tank ARE worth 2 KP with the INAT FAQ. That was why I posted above. Well, one of the times.

Whoops, my use of "units" as opposed to "unit" in my original post made it suddenly a reference to BOTH units...when I was trying to show the inconsistency. Thanks for the grammatical correction!

I find it very strange that Drones are part of a Tau vehicle (and NOT an upgrade, at least Gun Drones aren't.) but give an extra KP, while the Techmarine from a Thunderfire Cannon only counts as one if both the Marine and the Cannon are destroyed.

Che-Vito wrote:I find it very strange that Drones are part of a Tau vehicle (and NOT an upgrade, at least Gun Drones aren't.) but give an extra KP, while the Techmarine from a Thunderfire Cannon only counts as one if both the Marine and the Cannon are destroyed.

Again, it's because of how they act in game.

Yes, the Drones come standard with the vehicle. But they act as a separate unit, because they are treated as passengers rather than as mounted weapons.

The Techmarine and TF, however, are a single unit in all ways. They can't choose to wander off on their own, and can't act independantly while together. He's no different to any other model with a heavy weapon, aside from the fact that his weapon can be destroyed.

Che-Vito wrote:
I find it very strange that Drones are part of a Tau vehicle (and NOT an upgrade, at least Gun Drones aren't.) but give an extra KP, while the Techmarine from a Thunderfire Cannon only counts as one if both the Marine and the Cannon are destroyed.

Believe me, the Kill Point issues get pretty sticky once you try to address them all across every codex and try to make them consistent. Once you do you realize how many weird things there are to deal with.

Our baseline for Kill Point rulings is this:

If something is a UNIT in the game then it gives up a Kill Point when destroyed.

In the case of Tau Drones, the rules clearly state that they form a separate unit when detached and therefore they are worth a Kill Point if, and only if, they successfully detach (i.e. aren't destroyed when the vehicle is).

In the case of Chronus its a little stickier, but to us, the rules seem to indicate that he is simply an upgrade to the vehicle UNTIL it is destroyed, at which point the unit of Chronus is effectively 'created', and therefore worth a Kill Point when killed.

In the case of the Techmarine with a Thunderfire Cannon, if the Cannon is killed he becomes an IC, but there is no indication that he has suddenly become a new unit and therefore it is only 1 Kill Point if both models are killed.


Believe me when I say we argued for a very long time on these issues and I truly believe that there is no one clear way to rule here that would make everything consistent and everybody happy, but I think we came up with a pretty decent solution, IMHO.

The key difference between Tau drones and Cronus is that drones can be dismounted voluntarily, in which case the enemy has to make an extra effort to attack them.

If the Tau player wants to avoid the possibility of the drones failing their emergency disembarkation roll and being killed for an extra KP 'free', he can let them go early.

Then you have the issue of drones from a vehicle squadron.

All these problems would be avoided by using VPs instead of KPs, but that isn't the way the game works now.

yakface wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:
I find it very strange that Drones are part of a Tau vehicle (and NOT an upgrade, at least Gun Drones aren't.) but give an extra KP, while the Techmarine from a Thunderfire Cannon only counts as one if both the Marine and the Cannon are destroyed.

In the case of Chronus its a little stickier, but to us, the rules seem to indicate that he is simply an upgrade to the vehicle UNTIL it is destroyed, at which point the unit of Chronus is effectively 'created', and therefore worth a Kill Point when killed.

In the case of the Techmarine with a Thunderfire Cannon, if the Cannon is killed he becomes an IC, but there is no indication that he has suddenly become a new unit and therefore it is only 1 Kill Point if both models are killed.

You kill a Devilfish without disembarking the Drones = 1 KP
You kill Devilfish + disembarked Drones = 2 KP
You kill vehicle and Cronus = 2 KP
You kill TF Cannon and Techmarine = 1 KP

The arguement was made earlier that Drones disembarking makes "another unit to kill", but so does a Techmarine! I see no reason for this one unit to be an except, nor do I see the need to "clarify" the Tau codex when it clearly allows standalone Devilfish to be taken as Troops choices.

These are examples of the arbitrary rulings that are upsetting.

Kilkrazy wrote:The key difference between Tau drones and Cronus is that drones can be dismounted voluntarily, in which case the enemy has to make an extra effort to attack them.

All these problems would be avoided by using VPs instead of KPs, but that isn't the way the game works now.

The problem arises when you realize that killing 2 Drones is equal to killing a mob of 30 Boyz, and that killing both a Devilfish that disembarks the Drones and it's Drones...is equal to killing two mobs of 60 Boyz. Seriously now?

Che-Vito wrote:
The problem arises when you realize that killing 2 Drones is equal to killing a mob of 30 Boyz, and that killing both a Devilfish that disembarks the Drones and it's Drones...is equal to killing two mobs of 60 Boyz. Seriously now?

Well thats kill points for you. If i ran GW I'd make drone, rippers, scarabs and other none scoring unit (/never scoring) not count as kill points.

Che-Vito wrote:The problem arises when you realize that killing 2 Drones is equal to killing a mob of 30 Boyz, and that killing both a Devilfish that disembarks the Drones and it's Drones...is equal to killing two mobs of 60 Boyz. Seriously now?

That is GW's Fault, not the INATFAQs. If you don't like it, boycott GW Products.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tri wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:
The problem arises when you realize that killing 2 Drones is equal to killing a mob of 30 Boyz, and that killing both a Devilfish that disembarks the Drones and it's Drones...is equal to killing two mobs of 60 Boyz. Seriously now?

Well thats kill points for you. If i ran GW I'd make drone, rippers, scarabs and other none scoring unit (/never scoring) not count as kill points.

And If I ran GW we'd not need an INAT FAQ

Gwar! wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:The problem arises when you realize that killing 2 Drones is equal to killing a mob of 30 Boyz, and that killing both a Devilfish that disembarks the Drones and it's Drones...is equal to killing two mobs of 60 Boyz. Seriously now?

That is GW's Fault, not the INATFAQs. If you don't like it, boycott GW Products.

If INAT FAQ is comfortable reversing a very clear GW decision in the Codex (Devilfish don't have to be taken with a unit, and are a Troops choice), then I don't see any reason why they can't establish some consistency on the issues I listed.

Che-Vito wrote:
You kill a Devilfish without disembarking the Drones = 1 KP
You kill Devilfish + disembarked Drones = 2 KP
You kill vehicle and Cronus = 2 KP
You kill TF Cannon and Techmarine = 1 KP

The arguement was made earlier that Drones disembarking makes "another unit to kill", but so does a Techmarine! I see no reason for this one unit to be an except, nor do I see the need to "clarify" the Tau codex when it clearly allows standalone Devilfish to be taken as Troops choices.

These are examples of the arbitrary rulings that are upsetting.

You've got it wrong.

You kill a vehicle without Cronus disembarking = 1 KP
You kill a vehicle and Cronus disembarks and you then kill him too = 2 KPs

Which is EXACTLY the same as the ruling on the Drones.


And as for the Thunderfire cannon, how has a new unit been created when the Thunderfire Cannon is destroyed? The Techmarine is still the same model on the table that he was before, the only change is that he has now become an Independent Character.

You may disagree with these rulings, but they are NOT arbitrary. A whole lot of thought and discussion went into making them. Trust me when I say however you think that they should be ruled, there would be a whole giant host of people who would disagree with you and scream that your rulings were completely arbitrary.

Kilkrazy wrote:The key difference between Tau drones and Cronus is that drones can be dismounted voluntarily, in which case the enemy has to make an extra effort to attack them.

All these problems would be avoided by using VPs instead of KPs, but that isn't the way the game works now.

The problem arises when you realize that killing 2 Drones is equal to killing a mob of 30 Boyz, and that killing both a Devilfish that disembarks the Drones and it's Drones...is equal to killing two mobs of 60 Boyz. Seriously now?