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I'm a believer in the 40%-60% rule for close combat terminators. About 40% of the squad should be lightning claws and 60% should be thunder hammer/storm shield. In a 5 man squad, I would go 2 LC and 3 TH. That would give you 8 ST4, I4 powerweapon attacks and 9 ST8, I1 thunder hammer attacks on the charge. The LCs swinging first reduces the chances of lesser units (i.e. gaunts, guardsmen, orcs) from swamping you with attacks and lets your thunder hammers survive longer to dish out the pain.

Quick math hammer example: 6 Terminators (2LC, 4 TH) versus 20 boyz with powerklaw nob

2 LCs swing (8 attacks, 5.36 hits, 4.02 wounds, ~4 dead boyz)
15 boyz swing (30 attacks, 15 hits, 5 wounds, 0.8 dead terminator)
4 THs swing (12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 5 dead boyz)
Nob swings (3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.41 dead terminator)

Orcs lose 9, Terminators (worst case) lose 2, Orcs take 7 no retreat wounds and lose another 6 boyz bringing the mob down to 4 plus nob

Altnerately, pure TH (6 Terminators vs 20 boyz with powerklaw nob)

19 boyz swing (38 attacks, 19 hits, 6.27 wounds, 1.0032 dead terminators)
5 Terminators swing (15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.225 dead boyz)
Nob swings (3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.41 dead terminator)

Orcs lose 6, Terminaotrs (worst case) lose 2, Orcs take 4 no retreat wounds and lose another 4 boyz bringing the mob down to 9 plus nob

The difference is a staggering 5 extra dead orcs, with about the same risk to your Terminators.

Da-Rock wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:Take all TH/SS, Its a realy good unit and who cares if your hitting at I1 when you got 15 Str hits and a 2+/3+ save!

Well if you have 5 LC Termies attacking your 5 TH/SS Termies =

I4 20 re rolling LC attacks hit - average 1s and 2s rolled from 20 would be around 5 or 6 dead - you would never attack back. If going against Black Templars Termies or with a Chaplain that would be 20 re rolled to hit and wounds.

If you fight other really slow armies then TH/SS are ok, but that 3+ Inv is only in close combat and not from shooting.

Off a little bit here. LCs swing first for 20 attacks, 10 hits, 7.5 wounds, 2.475 failed saves so 2-3 TH terminators die before they swing. Assuming best case, they then respond with 3 guys swinging for 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.49 wounds, 1.64 failed saves. Basically trading 2-3 TH terminators for 1-2 LC terminators on the return swing.

Even if the TH guys charge...the LCs swing first for 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 5.62 wounds, 1.85 dead TH terminators. Best case, 4 still alive make 12 swings, 6 hit, 5 wound, 4.15 dead LCs. 1-2 dead TH terminators and you, most often, do not even destroy the LC squad in the same round of combat. A mixed squad would do better against both straight LC and straight TH/SS.

Fetterkey wrote:One thing to note is that a Vulkan army should probably stick to the hammers so as to make the best possible use of its weapon upgrades.

I think this is the Vulkan fallacy. Just because you can make every weapon, both ranged and close combat, benefit from his special rules doesn't mean its the best course of action. While it makes the TH terminators hittier, it doesn't actually negate any of their weaknesses against higher initiative troops and massed attacks. Mathematically, they are not stronger than a mixed squad against similiar opponents. 6 Vulkan Terminators kill the same amount of Orc Boyz as 2 LC and 4 standard TH terminators on the charge. A mixed squad of 2 LC and 4 Vulkaned THs would actually achieve more kills on average than 6 mastercrafted thunder hammers (10-11 versus 8-9).

Fetterkey wrote:If you are taking Vulkan, you are paying a large points cost and forfeiting one of your best rules in order to maximize the effect of certain weapons. To make this worth it, you have to go for those weapons whenever possible, and indeed build your entire army around Vulkan and his rules.

Again, I disagree. I think is a fallacy that makes Vulkan lists susceptible to close combat armies and makes them almost one dimensional. A Vulkan list that incorporates missile launchers in tac squads to add a little long range punch rather than multi-meltas is much more balanced because it adds both anti-tank and anti-infantry that can be fired outside of short and extremely short range. There are also certain land speeder builds where a MM or HF is optional, such as the Typhoon.

For assault terminators specifically, a Salamander assault terminator squad is mathematically better when it has a mix of LCs and master crafted Thunder hammers than when it has purely Thunder hammers.

Do you have to build your list around Vulkan when you field him? Absolutely. Losing combat tactics makes that essential. Does that mean you have to throw all the principles of balanced list building out the window and commit to being effective only inside 24 inches? Absolutely not!

GeneralRetreat wrote:Per the current Space Marine codex, Storm Shields provide a 3+ Invulnerable save to the model in both CC and against Shooting attacks. Lightning Claws re-roll to wound and are power weapons.

I agree with willydstyle -- a LC Terminator may add flexibility to the unit, but the Thunderhammer helps more with the intended role of high-toughness and vehicle killing. Since I play against Marines and Tyranids most often, I find that when I get that charge, I just want to make sure every single attack is the highest strength possible. Str4 vs T6 sucks, even with a re-roll. Str8 is just dominating, and 2+/3++ is great protection.

Well, lets do the easy thing---check the math.

Hive Tyrant vs. 6 TH/SS terminators

HT throws 5 attacks, 3.3 hit, 2.73 wound, 0.91 dead terminators
5 Terminators swing, 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.225 wounds, 5.16 failed 6++, dead HT

Hive Tyrant vs. 2 LC, 4 TH/SS terminators

HT throws 5 attacks, 3.3 hit, 2.73 wound, 0.91 dead terminators
2 LC swing (assuming the Marine put all invuls on the 3++), 8 attacks, 4 hits, 1.12 wounds, 0.92 failed invuls
3 TH swing, 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3.73 wounds, 3.1 failed invuls, dead HT

Statistically, a mixed squad should achieve the same success as a pure TH squad versus a HT. But I have to agree---the pure TH squad will dish out much more pain on average to big, multi-wound units (a full wound more on a HT in this case). As with everything else, it depends on what your list needs and what you expect to fight. In an all comers list for a tournament or a fixed-list league, I definately recommend taking a mixed squad.

Not really. The OP is asking about an assault squad in an Iron Hands army. Fetterkey raised the point about Vulkan terminators. It does skew the math a little, but its tough to account for without breaking it down to an individual level. You basically have to assume 2.25 hits per terminator instead of 1.5, which would make for up to 4 extra hits for the squad as a whole. Kinda funky to do it that way though because your assuming every model will roll the same and it doesn't account for the raw probabilities as cleanly.