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Hi Guys,

O.k. so my club is running a small torny its 1500pts random objective and setup

at the club theres a very strong grey knight player ,
a legend of a chaos marine player.
another space marine player uses a drop with either iron clad dred or chapter master and drops it inches infront of my line every game that i have tested this list on with great success
space wolves player that i have already beaten
a noobish ork player but with this list i feel he may get some luck
and chaos deamons which i have playered already and annihalated his whole forced at the loss of just one man(more to the fact that i left him no space to drop behind my lines so he wimped out of a risky drop and let me shoot the hell out of him then my own skill)



ok heres the list i am open to all critic

H.Q.
CCS-
+G.L,+G.L+Plasma pistol
70pts

ELITES
storm troopers-
+extra trooper
101pts

TROOPS
PCS-
+COMMISSAR,+4 FLAMERS,+Bolt pistol
87pts

Infantry squad-
+G.L, +Auto cannon
65pts
Infantry Squad-
+Heavy bolter
60pts

Heavy bolter squad
75pts

Lascannon squad
105pts

Veteran squad-
DEMOLITION, +Melta gun ,+ chimera
165pts

Veteran squad-
+G.L,+ Krak grenades
80pts

HEAVY SUPPORT

battle tank
150pts

Executionerx2
+plasma cannon side sponsons
420pts

Basalisk
125 pts


total 1503 pts which is well within the 1% limit unless i'm mistaken

as you can see the smerfs wory me the most but i have also tried to retain a high number of lasgun shots

BOOO I WAS HOPING FOR AT LEAST SOME HELP

play marines, guard are suck.

there's my advice

Horst wrote:play marines, guard are suck.

there's my advice

Dont list to Horst, this is my advice.

Top > Bottom.

-Weak special weapons in the CCS is a poor choice, as is the plasma pistol (In any part of a guard army)

-Storm troopers without special weapons is also a poor choice.

-Bolt pistol in the PCS, Why? Pointless.

-Commissar in the PCS, Why? Read out Commissars work. You will then understand they work best in infantry squad, which are hopefully combined into large squads

-Grenade launchers all-round for the infantry squad, best weapon for them.

-Heavy bolter heavy weapon squad = Good because its cheap and has alot of shot, slightly poor range, keep near the front*.

-Lascannon squad = Bad because they have a poor LD to recieve orders, are expensive, a target and extremely weak.

-Veteran squads can take three special weapons. Taking only one is sheer fail. Take three. Meltas are fine.

-Veterans can take one of three weapon combinations; 3xPlasma guns, 3x Melta guns, 2x Flamers + 1xHeavy flamer (The last works best with demolitions for the demo charge AND krak grenade - Multi-use squad. Anti horde, anti heavy infantry and anti-tank). Dont field them with ANYTHING else.

-Executioner in a squadren? Why? Such an extreme point sink. You do not need 10 small plasma templates. Even one vehicle with plasma sponsons could be overkill. Instead of your current heavy support try; 1x Leman Russ Battle Tank + Plasma Sponsons, 1xLeman Russ Battle Tank + Plasma Sponsons, 1x Manticore. Thats plasma heavy, has a good amount of anti-meq long-range bombardement from the early game and it provides you with some serious heavy-hitting strength 10 blast templates for monoliths, Landraiders, Nob bikers, wipping out infantry squads in general, etc.

Hope that helps.

yes it does thank you the commissar is there cause i liked the model and did a good paint job on it . no other reason
same with the bolt pistol

but i do appreciate the info on the executioners i opted to take the extra one because one of the smerf players likes drop pods and it was the only way i could really deal with his style of play .

do you think the leman russ would do just as good a job?

croggy wrote:yes it does thank you the commissar is there cause i liked the model and did a good paint job on it . no other reason
same with the bolt pistol

but i do appreciate the info on the executioners i opted to take the extra one because one of the smerf players likes drop pods and it was the only way i could really deal with his style of play .

do you think the leman russ would do just as good a job?

A standard LRBT + Plasma sponsons = A leman Russ Executioner point wise.

A LRBT = It has the same no. of templates but one is large. The large is +1str but also +1AP but it has the range to engage from turn one. Also, the problem with sponsons is that you have to turn the vehicle to mostly face your target to bring all weapons to bare.

An Executioner = Better rear armour, can move and fire everything, has shorter range and no large template but every template is @ ap2. It cant ID t4 but it can easily engage any target reguardless of facing. I.e you may want to engage that tactical squad that has just deep-striked behind you but you want to keep your AV14 facing that space marine Vindicator (and its str10 shots).

He's completely right about the tanks. Above all, the squadron rules are bad for expensive vehicles. You can only shoot at one target, and there are plenty of things in the game, like fire dragons or assault terminators, that can take out a whole squadron of LRBTs at once if they get close enough. Seperate vehicles are much better.

Razerous is right again that mostly, vet squads and CCSs should have the high-power special weapons, and some form of transport if possible. Infantry squads should get the more versatile ranged weapons (AC/GL is a great way to use them) and infantry squads (combined into large units) are the place to put commissars. 30 men can really benefit from being stubborn, 5 men will get killed anyway.

so i can just pop the commissar in the combined infantry squad

and drop one of the executioners for side sponsons on the battle tank


what do you recomend i do with all the extra points i know i would give the vets more weapons but that would still leave ..............

well alot of points(sorry dont have my codex on me)

Well here're the changes I was suggesting:

1. Heavy support, you have spent too many points here. Never take squadroned heavy vehicles if you can avoid it. Instead of 3 tanks costing 150, 190, and 230 points, take 3 that cost about 190. Example: 3 LRBTs, all with plasma sponsons, would fit the bill. Cut the basalisk altogether, there are some other ways to spend points that fit better with your list.

2. Troops, you've saved some points, this is where to spend them. Make sure both veteran squads have a chimera, and three melta- or plasma-guns. Demolitions can be very useful here, I would check the rest of the list over and put demolitions on both squads if you have filled out your other choices.
Take the commissar out of the PCS, and put him with the infantry like you said. I would remove the lascannon HWS. It is personal preference, but most people find that 105 pt squad is to easy to take out, and it's very isolated, if you see what I mean. It just screams out "shoot me, I'm instakilled by S6 weapons!". I would form an infantry platoon with 1 PCS (yours is great), 3 Infantry squads w/AC/GL, and 1 HWS w/heavy bolters or autocannons.

3. Elites, if you like stormtroopers, they can reliably deepstrike and that is a great opportunity to blast a tank from close range. Take out the extra man, give the squad 2 meltaguns. It's very hard to 'make your points back' by dropping and firing at an enemy squad. If you deep strike, aim for the tanks!

4. HQ, like veterans, CCSs have BS4. Make sure they have 4 special weapons and a chimera.

thanks for the advice i am going to re write the list

but before i do i would like some more help with the stormies

i use them for one thing and that is bike squads i drop or out flenk right next to or just behind them and depending on the size of the bike squad rapid fire or if i have the option pist5ol shoot and charge them


is there a better way of dealing with the bikes asi find this way works well but i am sure that there has to be a better method

as for the basilisk i set that up in a area of my deployment zone that has little or no real gaming advantage
i do this because the memberas of my club go straight for it which leaves my tanks to blaast away a little longer

I would also like to know if anyone knows a better way to use this tactic

Razerous wrote:-Storm troopers without special weapons is also a poor choice.

Close: Storm Troopers in general are a bad choice. Storm Troopers without special weapons are a terrible choice.

croggy wrote:is there a better way of dealing with the bikes asi find this way works well but i am sure that there has to be a better method

Bikes are T5 and can boost for a 3+ invulnerable save. Stormtroopers put down short ranged S3 AP3 3 shots. Point for point, I cannot think of a worse counter to bikes than stormtroopers. Hell, they make Ogryns start to look like a competent choice.

I know we all miss our drop troopers and love the models, but Storm Troopers are miserable at all roles expect deep striking to melta a tank. And for 105 points for two shots, they're pretty bad at that role, too.

i thought it was a 3+ cover save they got

first change out the basilisk, even for the strat you are using there are far better units for the job, the manticore would work best for this i this application.
i love the exe, its my fav unit in the codex. but it is costly and realy never need more then one aimed at something (you realy never need more then one in your list). before you add it you need to ask your self if you realy need the fire power it brings, if 27 ap2 wounds to a squad of 10 termys is to much then drop the exe and run the LRBT w/ plasma, for the cost of the bace exe. (saving 40 points off the top) and only do 20 wounds, (about 7 with saves). you will kill them with both options. like i said i run the exe in my list, i think its worth it. but this is boiling down to personal preferance now. i am a very fond supporter of both LR builds, they both work well on meny diffreant unit types.

max out the melta/plasma on all your vets, even the ones in the CCS

GL can go on your IS, but realy its a waist of points (filler if you need it). AC/HB = good on IS

HWT have no point on the field, they cant hit, they die fast, and cant take orders worth a crap. almost as bad as the LR nova.

the storm troops suck (not the worce in the book but very over priced for what they do). but, if you really want to use them they really need some melta.

and i see you have no fast attack, this one of the only codexes that really shine in this catagory. not saying you need to take something from here. but i think a most of these units would fill the role you are putting you stoorm troops in, and they may be able to do it better.

I think the original list is awful and I think a lot of the advice in this thread is also bad.

croggy wrote:
H.Q.
CCS-
+G.L,+G.L+Plasma pistol
70pts

This 5 man squad of T3 5+ armor save models will evaporate the first time your opponent devotes any shooting at it. Judging by its load out, it wants to sit back and issue orders. That will happen for 1 turn at most. They need at least a Chimera. If you're going to sit and shoot, the Grenade Launchers aren't too bad but you want to replace the Plasma Pistol with an Autocannon team.

croggy wrote:
ELITES
storm troopers-
+extra trooper
101pts

This squad will deep strike, kill maybe one marine, then die. For 105 points you can have a 5 man squad with 2 meltaguns. They'll deep strike, kill a vehicle worth more than 105 points, then die. A far better trade.

croggy wrote:
TROOPS
PCS-
+COMMISSAR,+4 FLAMERS,+Bolt pistol
87pts

Good weapons loadout, but the Commisar should be attached to a standard infantry squad and again, the 5 T3 5+ armor save guys should have a ride.

croggy wrote:
Infantry squad-
+G.L, +Auto cannon
65pts
Infantry Squad-
+Heavy bolter
60pts

The second squad should have an Autocannon instead of the Heavy Bolter.

croggy wrote:
Heavy bolter squad
75pts

Lascannon squad
105pts

Both these squads should be Autocannon squads. Lascannon Heavy Weapon Squads will evaporate to Scatter/Multi-Lasers and run with their leadership 7. Autocannon squads will at least not draw as much fire and with two you'll at least have redundancy. I would also consider running a Sisters of Battle Cannoness with Book of St. Lucius to keep these guys around and pass their Orders test with more regularity.

croggy wrote:
Veteran squad-
DEMOLITION, +Melta gun ,+ chimera
165pts

I would rather run this squad as triple melta rather than single melta + demolitions.

croggy wrote:
Veteran squad-
+G.L,+ Krak grenades
80pts

This squad is a useless squad that will not do anything baring some incredibly bad opponents or incredibly good luck. I would lose it to help buy Chimeras for the squads that need them.

croggy wrote:
HEAVY SUPPORT

battle tank
150pts

Executionerx2
+plasma cannon side sponsons
420pts

Run these two Heavy selections as an Executioner by itself, and the second as the Executioner squadroned with the standard Russ. I don't care that the APs differ, make sure the Standard Russ has cover so they both do and dump hits onto it so ITS constantly shaken/stunned while the Execution can happily continue firing. If you do happen to face an opponent with Thunder Shield Termies or Fire Dragons in Serpents, it makes your target priority easy for you.

croggy wrote:
Basalisk
125 pts

The Bassie is not that bad per se, but a standard Medusa might get you better mileage. An even better choice would be the Manticore, but with my suggestions you'd already be over the points limit and would need to scrounge points anyway.

The point of the list would be to crack open light transports AV10-12 with Autocannons, Grenade Launchers, Multi-Lasers, and if needbe Plasma Cannons. Then pound what falls out with your Heavies. Opposing AV13-14 vehicles need meltagun attention.

All that advice is perfectly sound. The only thing I would disagree with is about the tank squadron idea - I think 150 points is a bit steep for ablative armour.