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For the longest time, attaching a burst cannon to your XV8 was the Tau equivalent of putting 8 point grenade launchers on guardsmen...you just didn't do it. The argument went that the burst cannon did nothing the rest of your Tau army didn't already do...namely S5 AP5 fire.

Stealth suits aren't in the best position either. Aside from a mobile markerlight platform, the popular opinion seems to be that stealth suits are just taking up a slot that could be filled by XV8s. The reason? All they carry are S5 AP5 and for 30 points, why get that when you already have so much of it in your army.

Now here's the thing that doesn't click in my mind.

Where exactly -is- the S5 AP5 coming from in the Tau army?

Firewarriors have gotten a pretty bad rep for being too expensive, too fragile, too terrible etc., and as a result, Tau players are moving away from taking mass Firewarriors. I browsed the Tau armies on the first couple of pages of the Army Forums....18 Firewarriors in 1000 points, 14 in 1500 points, 24 in 1500 points, 18 in 2000 points, 12 in 1000 points... That's an average of 12 Firewarriors per 1000 points...12 S5 AP5 guns...hardly the massed infantry fire we need.


So, my question to you Tau players is this...where does your anti-infantry come from? Is the Pulse Rifle still the standard of your Tau army? Does the Burst Cannon deserve such a bad rep considering the lack of S5 AP5 in a standard Tau army these days?

Devilfish also come with a burst cannon, and either two gun drones or an SMS. That's 7 BS4 S5, SP5 shots on a 120pt fast vehicle that's always obscured. 4 of those shots dont' even need LOS.

Also keep in mind that true LOS in 5th makes Jump shoot jump a little more dangerous at short range. XV8s are now safer using range a little more.

Finally, the burst cannon is a fine weapon, it's just that Missle Pods and Plasma rifles are great weapons. The premium paid to take them is simply too low.

Stealths are way too expensive for what they do though. I was having this conversation last night and one thing that would be an easy change and make them worth their points is a longer range. Call it an... ER Burst Cannon

It's funny, Orchewer, I've been pondering the same question for the past month or so. I've switched from 2 12-man FW squads on foot (w/ Shas'ui + Bonding knife) to 2 6-man FW squads in Warfish, and I'm trying to figure out how to make up some of that lost firepower. My thoughts have been this:

1. Stealth Suits. Use them as slightly more durable Burst Cannon platforms and try to pull off the same anti-infantry usage. The 3+ save helps a bit too.

2. WHAT firepower loss? Being foot troops, my Firewarriors were usually moving and not shooting much anyway, or were being shot to hell early in the game to start with. Just go with what the Warfish provides for you.

3. Kroot. Twenty Kroot aren't terrible at shooting, and if you stick them in cover they're not terribly fragile. They can Outflank too if you want to, which is a nice option to have.

Currently my anti-infantry is coming from Warfish, Various Crisis Suit Weapons (Missile Pods, Plasma Rifles, Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, and (gasp!) Flamers), Kroot and Hammerheads, which is assisted by Markerlight support as necessary.

I think Lorek's got it. Stealths, Warfish, Kroot, and hammerhead templates (especially in combination with markers to remove cover saves) are the big anti-infantry providers. With FCW disembarked where/when absolutely necessary.

Stupid question: are flamer XV8's really that bad? I'm thinking put a flamer and twin Missile pod on a suit. For 47pts you get a good anti-transport unit that can do some damage up close as well.

I'm guessing the problem is that the XV8s aren't any faster than infantry in the movement phase, and simply don't get to shoot the flamer.

Some people seem to be very fond of twin linked flamer suits, depends on your play style really

I'm using a specialized deep-striking suit (XV8) with twin flamers and a fusion blaster. Dirt cheap, and I consider them expendable. You deep strike in sight of the Pathfinder Warfish to get the scatter re-roll, and you do it behind the enemy (especially against an assault army). The twin-linked flamers do some decent damage, and the fusion blaster is there as a backup, or if you just need them to do some anti-vehicle work.

I've only used them in one game, but they worked OK. I can't tell you about the long haul (dammit). Who'da thunk a car accident would mess with my Warhammer hobby?

Kroot Loops wrote:Some people seem to be very fond of twin linked flamer suits, depends on your play style really

True but I still prefer my fire warriors against Guard. 30" S5AP5 guns firing at them and my suits doing anti-transport or anti-tank duties is much more my style. I've never really enjoyed burst cannons either. If I had enough board room I'd stay at 24" and take out my enemy the entire game. Too bad the world is only 4'X6' and then drops off into nothingness.

I hope it's not serious, Lorek :(. And wasn't your name Iorek at one point? Or am I crazy?

Polonius, I've heard of that suit layout before, and I think it's a good idea. Especially if you're taking Deathrains (TL MP) suits anyway, adding the flamer is cheap and makes them not afraid to dive in close if you're getting overwhelmed towards the end of a game.

I actually bought a bunch of flamer bits on the swap shop to add to my suits for that very reason. Unfortunately I just sold the army on ebay (since I'm going for warhammer fantasy only now) but I was really hot on the idea of adding them to my suits

Try them out in a test game and report back about the results!

As to the OP... the fire warriors can still hop out and rapid-fire their pulse rifles, and it's true, mine never really killed anything when I was using lots of them as a gun-line. So I'd agree with "what firepower?" lost, and the idea of using SMS and burst cannons on the devilfish to make up for it.

I always use 1 full unit of stealth suits in a 1500 to 1750 point game, and 2 units in a 2K point game.

If I am going up against armor, I add the fusion blaster, otherwise its 18 S5 AP5 shots that move off to a flank after shooting. Opponent has to decide which way they want to go. Do they die? Yes, but only after breaking an assault up or shooting vehicles in the backside.

I still really like Fire Warriors but burst cannons are awful

You know, if you feel you are lacking in str5 ap5 shots, you could always go with the good ol' Burst Cannon/Missle pod build, for general anti-infantry. Personally, I never used this build because I have plenty of pulse rifles (I FoF), but I've heard this has worked pretty well against guard and the like. Plus, you always have the option of hitting transports with the missle pod.

I don't play Tau very often at all, but when I have I take 1-2 x3 XV8s with TL missile pods and flamers, and its really nasty for several reasons:

1. dirt cheap: you can afford a hefty number in smaller games even
2. they are pretty reliable and effective with long range TL BS3; maybe not at cracking MEQ =/
3. even though somebody mentioned that XV8s are only infantry and so wouldn't get in range to flame easily, in actual fact i've found the flamers really effective because as Tau your enemy almost always tries to engage with you, and a large quantity of flamers make a great counter-nuke to incoming squads. In that sense the distance is moot

4. building off the last point, this combo is particularly fun against mech armies (average av 11-12) where you can shoot the tanks at range, and then torch the slower squishies with your flamers

anyway, just thought i would throw that in.

Re: burst cannons, I do tend to take a squad of stealth suits so that they can obscure my other troops, and because they are a relatively mobile unit that can belt out a good amount of shots. I think typically I would take 5 or so.
When you pop transports the stealths are great to have in a flexible position to take advantage of that. Also, with their flanking, and S5 weapons, they can be a really interesting wild card.
Definitely not an uber-unit though...

Cheers,
Ibushi