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So, I proposed some rules for this guy a while back, got mixed reviews, then went and playtested him, wrote some more fluff, forgot about the idea, then revisited it. This is the second draft of my chapter master, Gordon Aryon, chapter master and chief of the librarium for the Vigilant.

WS:6 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:5 A:3 Ld10 Sv2+/4++

Wargear:
Purified Fist.
The Hammer of his Judgement.
Shield of Disgust
The Armor of Contempt
Frag/Krak Grenades
Iron Halo

Special Rules:
ATSKNF
Combat Tactics
Independent Character
Chapter Tactics
Ever Vigilant

Purified Fist: This power fist was taken from the terminator armor of a chaos lord and purified by the chapter's chaplains. The fist itself seems to hate heretics, psykers, and traitors almost as much as it's master.
The Hammer of his Judgement: This thunder hammer is the chapter's most holy relic. it burns brightly with the light of the emperor, and all those near to it feel the weight of their sins against the emperor one hundred fold. Only the strongest may hold it, and only the most righteous may look upon it. Gordon is both.
These relics of the chapter are individually terrifying in power, combined, however, their power is nearly unstoppable. Together they count as a S8 power weapon.

Shield of Disgust and Armor of contempt: This is a suit of artificer armor and shield that grant a 2+ armor save and the 'preferred enemy' special rule.

Chapter Tactics:
All units in your army exchange the combat tactics special rule with the 'counter attack' special rule.

Ever Vigilant:
"Gordon Aryon has eyes like a hawk and reflexes like a snake. Any enemy unit attempting to break off from a combat containing Gordon automatically fails to do so, and is subject to the usual rules for being caught in a sweeping advance. This rule only applies for break off tests made as a result of losing combat, and not tests made due to special rules (such as Hit and Run)."


Pricing: I'd place him around 240. His army-wide benefits are weaker than calgar's, but he is slightly stronger in close combat (S8 at init, vs S4 at init or S8 at i1), he is, however, much less powerful than abbaddon, and without eternal warrior he is more vulnerable than either.

Seems balanced. Gordon can't shoot as he has no shooting weapons, and can be instant killed by a lucky swing. He'll always have effective A4 as he benefits from counter charge - 4x2/3x5/6 = 40/18 just a bit over 2 wounds to anything T6 or below.

I -am- envisioning him as being bright orange power armor wielding his Thunder-Crowbar smashing apart heretic wooden crates who have displeased the Emperor!

I -am- envisioning him as being bright orange power armor wielding his Thunder-Crowbar smashing apart heretic wooden crates who have displeased the Emperor!

I was hoping at least someone would get the (admittedly vague) reference.

Hmm, seems a bit on the overpowered side. S8 at init is bad enough, but you're apparently hitting at init 6 which means that you're instakilling alot of things before they ever strike back at all. S7 and/or init 5 seems less crazy, but maybe that's just me. And you may as well dump the krak grenades, you'll never need them anyway.
I don't get the idea behind two superslow weapons combining to one superfast one, but that's just a minor fluff disagreement, feel free to ignore.

I dont' get that "Ever Vigilant" rule. Does it apply to your character alone, or your whole army?

1.) Yeah, it is powerful. Abbaddon gets it for 275 points, but he also gets 6 potential extra attacks out of it, that reroll to-wound.

2.) All chapter masters get frag and krak. I know it's useless, but it's just there for decoration.

3.) Power fist is strong, but required a lot of wind-up and power to use. Same with the thunder hammer. A (relic) power fist give the necessary strength to wield the (relic) thunder hammer with a bit of extra speed.

4.) only to Gordon, and squads attached to him. I'll make it a little clearer.

Are these the the same basic stats you gave to dedrith to go off of to dumb down his uber powerful and ridiculous CM? This guy looks really balanced except maybe one thing. I am unsure about the 'Ever Vigilant' rule. To me it seems a little much but other than that i think this guy is great. I found the description of the fist amusing the fist hates everyone including the person wielding it.

Ever Vigilant worries me too, it could be a scary force multiplier if he is in a combat with the right unit. Mostly its such a different ability I'm not quite sure how you would price it.

EDIT: As written it also seems to negates ATSKNF

Jack

Canonness Rory wrote:Ever Vigilant:
Gordon Aryon has eyes like a hawk and reflexes like a snake. Any time the enemy fails a leadership test after losing combat that gordon participated in, they are immediately wiped out as though they had been in a sweeping advance.

This seems kind of vague. Does this mean he automatically destroys a unit that would normally have had a chance to reroll their morale check? Does this mean They Shall Know No Fear kicks in like it does during a sweeping advance? Does a psyker who fails a psychic test after having previously lost a round of close combat against Gordon immediately die (technically it should qualify due to it being a "leadership test")?

Maybe something more like "Gordon Aryon has eyes like a hawk and reflexes like a snake. Any enemy unit attempting to break off from a combat containing Gordon automatically fails to do so, and is subject to the usual rules for being caught in a sweeping advance. This rule only applies for break off tests made as a result of losing combat, and not tests made due to special rules (such as Hit and Run)."?

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:Ever Vigilant:
Gordon Aryon has eyes like a hawk and reflexes like a snake. Any time the enemy fails a leadership test after losing combat that gordon participated in, they are immediately wiped out as though they had been in a sweeping advance.

This seems kind of vague. Does this mean he automatically destroys a unit that would normally have had a chance to reroll their morale check? Does this mean They Shall Know No Fear kicks in like it does during a sweeping advance? Does a psyker who fails a psychic test after having previously lost a round of close combat against Gordon immediately die (technically it should qualify due to it being a "leadership test")?

Maybe something more like "Gordon Aryon has eyes like a hawk and reflexes like a snake. Any enemy unit attempting to break off from a combat containing Gordon automatically fails to do so, and is subject to the usual rules for being caught in a sweeping advance. This rule only applies for break off tests made as a result of losing combat, and not tests made due to special rules (such as Hit and Run)."?

Think Orkeosaurus nailed the wording for you. Everything else looks pretty good.

Yes, that wording is perfect.

Canonness Rory wrote:Yes, that wording is perfect.

The idea of every unit that is forced to take a morale check being destroyed...way overpowered. You assault a squad (I'm sure non-Tau examples exist, lets not get into the semantics here) of a Shas'o and his bodyguards. It's entirely likely that they won't cause a single unsaved wound, yet this character by himself could wipe the entire squad by simply causing a wound and making them fall back.

Broken?

If this is the case then i agree i was struggling with this yesterday to understand but now that the wording is cleared up then i say it is a bit OTT.

Che-Vito wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:Yes, that wording is perfect.

The idea of every unit that is forced to take a morale check being destroyed...way overpowered. You assault a squad (I'm sure non-Tau examples exist, lets not get into the semantics here) of a Shas'o and his bodyguards. It's entirely likely that they won't cause a single unsaved wound, yet this character by himself could wipe the entire squad by simply causing a wound and making them fall back.

Broken?

Not really, considering he is likely to kill the entire squad by himself in CC, especially if he has a retinue. That might sound a bit overpowered, but at his points Abbaddon or Calgar could do similar things, or even just a marine squad with a hidden fist, or a squad of orks. Rubbish CC squads will always be rubbish.

Its not really overpowered. All it really says is "If the enemy breaks from combat, this character and his attached squad automatically catch them." There are many worse rules that get proposed here and many more overpowered ones made by actual GW employees.

I have to say the Auot sweep is a bit much, why not turn it into a +1 to your roll to catch them or prehaps a simple reroll of the oringal roll to catch, and you decide which to keep? it still gives the enemy unit a chance to escape, but puts the favor in your corner.

I don't think the auto-sweep is that powerful, really.

It's useless on any unit that is already unable to regroup due to being below half strength. It's useless against low Initiative enemies who would be swept up by an I5 character regardless. It's of diminished use against Space Marines. It's useless against all fearless and most stubborn models. It's useless in circumstances where the unit would be unable to regroup due to being too close to enemy, or too close to the board edge. It's useless when the squad is wiped out in combat before morale tests are even done. It's useless when Gordon loses combat.

I don't know if there have been more than a handful of times in my years of playing Warhammer where I didn't consider a squad that broke in close combat dead right there and then. I can't think of any time where a squad that has been broken and fled combat has then gone on to accomplish anything. Except maybe rallying under the old Mob Up rule.

You guys do bring up good points. It just sounds more broken on paper then when it is put to actual use. Kind of like the JoWW or whatever it is called. After seeing that put to use it isnt as effective in most circumstances. I now sound wishwashy though. The points are definitely spot on and wouldnt expect any less on the rules from Cannoness Rory.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I don't think the auto-sweep is that powerful, really.

It's useless on any unit that is already unable to regroup due to being below half strength. It's useless against low Initiative enemies who would be swept up by an I5 character regardless. It's of diminished use against Space Marines. It's useless against all fearless and most stubborn models. It's useless in circumstances where the unit would be unable to regroup due to being too close to enemy, or too close to the board edge. It's useless when the squad is wiped out in combat before morale tests are even done. It's useless when Gordon loses combat.

I don't know if there have been more than a handful of times in my years of playing Warhammer where I didn't consider a squad that broke in close combat dead right there and then. I can't think of any time where a squad that has been broken and fled combat has then gone on to accomplish anything. Except maybe rallying under the old Mob Up rule.

It's useful in many of the above situations actually....
That squad that broke, at least for some armies, can be used to tie up valuable enemy units for another turn of shooting/assault...and they might even take a few of the enemy with them.

If by many you mean two (as they only actually escape in two), by shooting them as they fall back?

I've never seen that done particularly effectively. Heavy weapons can't be used, special weapons are limited in use by the distance they have to fall back. They can't charge, so they can only tie things up if they're assaulted.

Orkeosaurus wrote:If by many you mean two (as they only actually escape in two), by shooting them as they fall back?

I've never seen that done particularly effectively. Heavy weapons can't be used, special weapons are limited in use by the distance they have to fall back. They can't charge, so they can only tie things up if they're assaulted.

You are correct for some armies, while not with others. Since I play both Tau and Marines, ATSKNF and Bonding Knives provide excellent ways to regroup, even if under 50%.

This rule also seems like a pretty convienant way to take out expensive IC's that join squads.

Expensive ICs are quite often either fearless or give better CC prowess than a guy with 4 Pfist attacks.

Canonness Rory wrote:Expensive ICs are quite often either fearless or give better CC prowess than a guy with 4 Pfist attacks.

Really? In Codex:Space Marines alone, I just counted 10 IC's that are neither fearless, and all of them have either base 2 or 3 attacks. (which with weapons and such, means that some of them will have either 2, 3, 4, or 5 attacks).

(Note for the above count, I didn't include Calgar, as he is essentially Fearless, insofar as that he can pass checks whenever he feels like it)

Che-Vito wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:Expensive ICs are quite often either fearless or give better CC prowess than a guy with 4 Pfist attacks.

Really? In Codex:Space Marines alone, I just counted 10 IC's that are neither fearless, and all of them have either base 2 or 3 attacks. (which with weapons and such, means that some of them will have either 2, 3, 4, or 5 attacks).

(Note for the above count, I didn't include Calgar, as he is essentially Fearless, insofar as that he can pass checks whenever he feels like it)

Ok, but did you only include expensive ICs?
Sicarious and Tigirius can kill gordon before they have to test, both causing instant death, and both have tons of table-wide benefits, Sicarious's remaining even after he dies.
Kantor has army-wide benefits, as well as making the squad he is with a ton better in CC, Lysander has a S10 thunder hammer, He'stan and Shrike both have army-wide benefits that wreck face, and both are beasts in cc vs rank-and file (anything without a 4+ invuln sav eis basically toast), Khan is kind of a chump if you don't use him right, and all of these characters, save for the 2 smurfs and Lysander, are way cheaper than Gordon at less then 200. That leaves the vanilla HQs, 4 of which can cause instant death to Gordon if they're not targeted, 1 of which can kill him even if he IS targeted (librarian), one of which is the chaplain, with all their CC hax, and one of which can cause ID to gordon at range.

All of these HQs have a 4+ (or even better in some cases) invuln save, and WS6 (except Tigirius), meaning even if gordon does target them, with his 4 attacks 2 will hit and 1 will get by, so only against characters 50-100 points less than he is, he will reliably kill them, against characters with eternal warrior (lysander for 40 points less?) he is boned unless he's with a 200 point squad of terminators.

These are all, of course, assuming these characters come ALONE. If any of them come with a squad with hidden Pfist, or with termies, the Pfist can target gordon, and the IC can wreck the face of the squad gordon is with.

Sorry, you're wrong. The ability is powerful, but most abilities at 200+ points are. He loses in combat to characters less points than he is (Lysander, Sicarious, Tigirius), though he does excel at wiping stubborn squads like TH/SS termies or Sisters of Battle.

Canonness Rory wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:Expensive ICs are quite often either fearless or give better CC prowess than a guy with 4 Pfist attacks.

Really? In Codex:Space Marines alone, I just counted 10 IC's that are neither fearless, and all of them have either base 2 or 3 attacks. (which with weapons and such, means that some of them will have either 2, 3, 4, or 5 attacks).

(Note for the above count, I didn't include Calgar, as he is essentially Fearless, insofar as that he can pass checks whenever he feels like it)

Ok, but did you only include expensive ICs?
Sicarious and Tigirius can kill gordon before they have to test, both causing instant death, and both have tons of table-wide benefits, Sicarious's remaining even after he dies.
Kantor has army-wide benefits, as well as making the squad he is with a ton better in CC, Lysander has a S10 thunder hammer, He'stan and Shrike both have army-wide benefits that wreck face, and both are beasts in cc vs rank-and file (anything without a 4+ invuln sav eis basically toast), Khan is kind of a chump if you don't use him right, and all of these characters, save for the 2 smurfs and Lysander, are way cheaper than Gordon at less then 200. That leaves the vanilla HQs, 4 of which can cause instant death to Gordon if they're not targeted, 1 of which can kill him even if he IS targeted (librarian), one of which is the chaplain, with all their CC hax, and one of which can cause ID to gordon at range.

All of these HQs have a 4+ (or even better in some cases) invuln save, and WS6 (except Tigirius), meaning even if gordon does target them, with his 4 attacks 2 will hit and 1 will get by, so only against characters 50-100 points less than he is, he will reliably kill them, against characters with eternal warrior (lysander for 40 points less?) he is boned unless he's with a 200 point squad of terminators.

These are all, of course, assuming these characters come ALONE. If any of them come with a squad with hidden Pfist, or with termies, the Pfist can target gordon, and the IC can wreck the face of the squad gordon is with.

Sorry, you're wrong. The ability is powerful, but most abilities at 200+ points are. He loses in combat to characters less points than he is (Lysander, Sicarious, Tigirius), though he does excel at wiping stubborn squads like TH/SS termies or Sisters of Battle.

He doesn't have to kill the other IC in close combat, he only has to cause more wounds with his squad, then the other squad does against him. If they break (and in high-powered close combat, somebody will.) then the unit is gone.

Saying that I am wrong doesn't suddenly make me so. The ability is indeed powerful, and justifying that he doesn't kick it as well in CC, doesn't fly. If he is put with a dedicated CC squad, then your presented arguments become irrelevant.

(Note: if I included the Independent Characters that are NOT special characters, it would strengthen my argument even more. And that's only from 1 Codex.)

He doesn't have to kill the other IC in close combat, he only has to cause more wounds with his squad, then the other squad does against him.

This is where you stopped making sense.

Saying that I am wrong doesn't suddenly make me so. The ability is indeed powerful, and justifying that he doesn't kick it as well in CC, doesn't fly. If he is put with a dedicated CC squad, then your presented arguments become irrelevant.

So, you're saying my 440 point squad of terminators + gordon can beat your 200 point squad of terminators? SHOCKING.

(Note: if I included the Independent Characters that are NOT special characters, it would strengthen my argument even more. And that's only from 1 Codex.)

Space Marines have the largest, most IC-rich codex in the game, you may be only pulling examples from one codex, but it is the most loaded codex to do so from. Also, i included non special character ICs in my refutation, so go ahead and flaunt that you won, as you said: "Saying that I am wrong doesn't suddenly make me so."

So let's recap.
I stated:
Expensive ICs are quite often either fearless or give better CC prowess than a guy with 4 Pfist attacks.

You tried to refute me by counting space marine special characters that weren't fearless and didn't have oodles of attacks. I went through every IC option and told you why they were either:
A. Better in CC than gordon or
B. Much, much cheaper than gordon. (to the tune of 100 points, in some cases)

Then you proceeded to act like you only read half my post and only called me wrong, without presenting any arguments towards that end.

Che-Vito wrote:You are correct for some armies, while not with others. Since I play both Tau and Marines, ATSKNF and Bonding Knives provide excellent ways to regroup, even if under 50%.

For Tau, what's the maximum amount of models they'd realistically lose from this rule? Battlesuits are having Instant Death inflicted on them, so you'll probably only have one or maybe two (with shield drones) dying because of the rule (and that's only if they would other escape and regroup). Firewarriors are only I2 aren't they? If so, there's very little chance they'll get away in either case, and I also recall them having a pretty low squad size (or at least I've never seen them numbering over 12 models). Tanks are obviously immune.

My understanding of the rule is that ATSKNF means they take wounds from combat resolution if they would normally be swept up, in which case that's not overpowered.

This rule also seems like a pretty convenient way to take out expensive IC's that join squads.

Aren't they normally at risk for destruction by being unable to regroup while fleeing? If you're IC is losing combat, and failing their morale check, then they're usually toast already.

Canonness Rory wrote:

He doesn't have to kill the other IC in close combat, he only has to cause more wounds with his squad, then the other squad does against him.

This is where you stopped making sense.

It makes perfect sense. Why kill the opponent's IC when instead you can inflict more wounds on his troopers? (and thereby cause more wounds to the squad).

Canonness Rory wrote:

Saying that I am wrong doesn't suddenly make me so. The ability is indeed powerful, and justifying that he doesn't kick it as well in CC, doesn't fly. If he is put with a dedicated CC squad, then your presented arguments become irrelevant.

So, you're saying my 440 point squad of terminators + gordon can beat your 200 point squad of terminators? SHOCKING.

I didn't say a word about Terminators, I was simply telling you that your arguments were empty in a very specific situation.

Canonness Rory wrote:

(Note: if I included the Independent Characters that are NOT special characters, it would strengthen my argument even more. And that's only from 1 Codex.)

Space Marines have the largest, most IC-rich codex in the game, you may be only pulling examples from one codex, but it is the most loaded codex to do so from. Also, i included non special character ICs in my refutation, so go ahead and flaunt that you won, as you said: "Saying that I am wrong doesn't suddenly make me so."

So let's recap.
I stated:
Expensive ICs are quite often either fearless or give better CC prowess than a guy with 4 Pfist attacks.

You tried to refute me by counting space marine special characters that weren't fearless and didn't have oodles of attacks. I went through every IC option and told you why they were either:
A. Better in CC than gordon or
B. Much, much cheaper than gordon. (to the tune of 100 points, in some cases)

Then you proceeded to act like you only read half my post and only called me wrong, without presenting any arguments towards that end.

I have no stake in this man, you are the one taking it personally that I think your CM has a broken rule.
1. Yes I didn't mention non-special IC's...they only give more ammo to my argument...more people for your character to Insta Kill
2. It's irrelevant if they are better than Gordon in CC, because if Gordan and his squad can make the enemy fall back, then they're dead.
3. Price costing for an ability like the one you have listed has no peer among Space Marine special characters. Period.

I have presented arguments for you, read them. If you don't want feedback from a variety of players of your made-up characters, then don't post it.