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well going over the Marine codex and trying to find a use for my command squad, I orginally thought they would be a decent shooty unit, tooled out with 4 melta guns or plasma guns, then after ready the rules for them I picked up on the fact that they could be a very scary assault unit as well. I can tool the 4 guys out with Storm Sheilds, Thunder Hammers and a Plasma Gun each, so toss them into a drop pod and have them land next to a high save squad(like terminators, obliterators, Broadsides) since they can't assault have them unload 8 Str 7 Ap2 shots into the unit, thanks to the FNP rule they get their 3+, and then a 4+ to ignore the gets hot wounds. then the next turn (unless completely nuked, a 3+ against ap4+, 3++ and a 4++ against anything lower than ap3 and not ap1). toss in a Captain with a Storm Sheild, Artificer Armor and Relic Blade for a decent counter charge (3 I5, Ws5, Str6 power weapon attacks on the defensive, with Dig weapons to help protect the squad from assault the turn they drop in). so the Captain costs 170pts, and command costs 355pts, now I am thinking of just dropping the Plasma Guns and then tossing the names squad into a Razorback, or prehaps get a Chaplain to toss in with them, scary thought, 12 Str8 I1 attacks, 4 Str6 I5 attacks and 4 Str4 I4 attacks, all getting rerolls to hit, then some mixed in digs for 2 wound rerolls.

this is of course a huge chunk of points, but if deployed right, they could alot of damage. and with 7 bodies, 3 types of wound groups(I could go the way of the Nob Bikers and be real nasty giving me 5 wound groups) the entire unit gets feel no pain, and the weakest part in the unit has got to be the apothcary, now only if I could give him at least a SH I would be happy, but as he is listed as Apothecary no luck, usless this has been changed to FAQ.

well this is just an idea and I was hoping to get Dakka's opinion before I start modeling the squad to have both Plas guns and SS/TH

Hmmm.
5 dudes with TH/SS.
or
9 dudes with TH/SS.

I say keep them cheap.
If you want Assault Terminators……..get Assault Terminators.

Well, they are not that hard to avoid…are not scoring and are more kill points than just normal Assault Terminators.
FNP is cool, but it can be lost.

For the love of god…………Nob Bikers abuse wound allocation because they have 2 wounds a piece.
It’s not just allocating wounds itself… it’s the: remaining 100% effective even after taking a wound. The bonus for allocating wounds on single wound modeled squads is little compared to Nob Bikers…../sigh…

As a modeling project, go for it…but I wouldn’t touch that for competitive gaming.

Sanctjud wrote:Hmmm.
5 dudes with TH/SS.
or
9 dudes with TH/SS.

well lets compare, for 5pts cheaper, I get 8 Str7 Ap2 shots at 12", not enough to insta kill MEQ, but enough to give Eldar,IG and Nid units something to think about. get a 3+ armor save, a 3++ invul save, and a 4+ against anything failed again ap2 or better.

Sanctjud wrote:
Well, they are not that hard to avoid…are not scoring and are more kill points than just normal Assault Terminators.
FNP is cool, but it can be lost.

that it can, but if I have 5 wound groups, it will take 4 ap2 wounds for me to worry about losing him. and they don't need to score to be useful, have them drop down on an objective, and dig in, they could easily deny it for a good couple of turns, and the later they come in the better. even with only 6 bodies, with decent rolls, they could cause some pain just by simply denying an objective all game. so the other play can ignore them, or put alot of effort into removing them, giving the rest of my army time to breath, and at just over 500pts(for cap and command squad) I still have 900+pts to spend in a 1500pt list. thats another Hq, and easily two troops with transports, if I go cheap I could add another unit some where in there.

your very right in that it can be lost, but it will take some time, and at the very least I will get a 4++, or a 4+ cover and a 4+ FNP, and at T4 unless I am looking at Plasma or Melta, the squad should for the most part hold up just fine. they have 66%(4/6ths chance) to get their armor/invul save, and then another 50%(3/6ths chance) to ignore it if failed. I can't do math hammer, but looking at my odds, the unit will pull through most attacks, and with LD10, rerolls on LD, and pinning tests I don't seem them breaking.

but in my mind what really shines with this 5 man unit is that it takes up zero slots on my FOC, so I can bring more scoring units like Sterns and Tactical marines, a squad of CC terms eats up 1 elite slot, meaning less Sterns in larger games. so they are a cheaper squad of assault terminators, that take up no slots leaving it open for units that can score.

almost forgot, my Command Squad can Sweep and Advance, terminators cannot.

well lets compare, for 5pts cheaper, I get 8 Str7 Ap2 shots at 12", not enough to insta kill MEQ, but enough to give Eldar,IG and Nid units something to think about. get a 3+ armor save, a 3++ invul save, and a 4+ against anything failed again ap2 or better.

The FNP can be bypassed it can be lost.
It's effectively the same thing as 2+ but can be lost.
In addition, you don't get the FNP from str 8+ sort of stuff... so you revert back to MEQ++ status.

So... FNP + power armor compared to 2+ armor is actually a bit worse.
Both have 3++ so I won't comment on that.

The Command squad has effectively 4 members in it that takes hits.
The Ass Termies have 5 more models that will always get their 2+ (as opposed to the Command Squad who can lose their effective 2+) and have more models to boot, and have more attacks in combat at the cost of losing out on shooting.

Ass termies can still be useful in shooting phase: by running, as to get out of template formation and maximize the closeness early on.

__________

almost forgot, my Command Squad can Sweep and Advance, terminators cannot.

So? The Ass Termies have twice the number of attacks....so will kill everyone.
Command squad has half the number of attacks, kill some... then give the opponent the chance to pass a ld test ( there are fearless/stubborn units out there)

_______________

that it can, but if I have 5 wound groups, it will take 4 ap2 wounds for me to worry about losing him. and they don't need to score to be useful, have them drop down on an objective, and dig in, they could easily deny it for a good couple of turns, and the later they come in the better. even with only 6 bodies, with decent rolls, they could cause some pain just by simply denying an objective all game. so the other play can ignore them, or put alot of effort into removing them, giving the rest of my army time to breath, and at just over 500pts(for cap and command squad) I still have 900+pts to spend in a 1500pt list. thats another Hq, and easily two troops with transports, if I go cheap I could add another unit some where in there.

I’m not saying they need to be scoring to be useful. You are putting words in my mouth. For something that is so expensive it’s taking away from the rest of the list. Scoring models are generally the backbone of the list.
Which brings me to a more important question: what’s the rest of the list look like? Actually put it down.

5 man squad that costs roughly 10 Assault terminators is not that flexible either.
Don’t forget the pod.
That ends up them costing more for their delivery.

To get them to come in later, that means you need too purchase more pods.
Denying a single obj. is a great, but a 10 man squad (combat squadded or not) can cover 2 objectives.

your very right in that it can be lost, but it will take some time, and at the very least I will get a 4++, or a 4+ cover and a 4+ FNP, and at T4 unless I am looking at Plasma or Melta, the squad should for the most part hold up just fine. they have 66%(4/6ths chance) to get their armor/invul save, and then another 50%(3/6ths chance) to ignore it if failed. I can't do math hammer, but looking at my odds, the unit will pull through most attacks, and with LD10, rerolls on LD, and pinning tests I don't seem them breaking.

Where do you get Ld 10 rerolls? You have no standard purchased.
In addition, don’t overestimate their durability, I’ve seen far too many keel over to weight of fire… funny enough usually the apoth.

but in my mind what really shines with this 5 man unit is that it takes up zero slots on my FOC, so I can bring more scoring units like Sterns and Tactical marines, a squad of CC terms eats up 1 elite slot, meaning less Sterns in larger games. so they are a cheaper squad of assault terminators, that take up no slots leaving it open for units that can score.

How can you take more options when this option costs so much?
You are viewing it as a bonus when it really isn’t, it’s only a bonus if you keep it cheap and then have the points to dump on other squads.

You never said you use Kantor, so Sterns don’t score without him.
You still have to spend the points for a Captain to get access to a Command Squad…so they are effectively a HQ slot.

What points levels are you talking about…an Elite slot is not a lot to ‘lose’ to get a squad of 10 Assault terminators…..combat squadded that’s like 2 Elite slots in one.
They are cheaper by 5 points for less than half the durability and half the offensive power in combat……..they offset this by having a ranged attack… that can be mitigated by cover saves.

I have run a Command Squad in a Two Land Raider Vulkan List to much effectiveness.

Here is my Command Squad:

Apothecary
Marine w/ Meltagun
2 Marines w/ SS, LC
Company Standard

200 points exactly. Same cost as a 5 man Assault Terminators Squad.

Usually attach Vulkan and a Commander with Thunderhammer/Storm Shield and possibly Artificer Armor and Digital Weapons if I am odd on points.

So you have two multiwound models with feel no pain so you can bounce shots with them, a few storm shields for that odd power weapon wound, and a decent amount of attacks. The Captain has a Master Crafter Thunder Hammer, Vulkan has his Master Crafted attacks, and you still have 6 Lightning Claw attacks as well.

The biggest advatage they have is the ability to pop transports and assault the guys inside, they are surprisingly survivable as well, in my experience, more so then the Terminator Squad, mainly because wound allocation is your friend.

I run this combo in addition to an Assault Terminator Squad and multiple Land Raiders, and it has been successful for me.

Mahu: that drop of 155 is a big difference, while the Command squad loots just as lethal against a different set of targets.

It offers more utility to others (standard) and has more synergy and longer term usage.

Vulkan and the LR does change things.

Lol, if you had an extra 55 points you could upgrade the Captain to Lysander....re-rolling to hit Str 10.

Sanctjud wrote:
The FNP can be bypassed it can be lost.
It's effectively the same thing as 2+ but can be lost.
In addition, you don't get the FNP from str 8+ sort of stuff... so you revert back to MEQ++ status.

as can an invul save, and against most str8 attack the Command Marines are the same as a Terminator, save wise.(the only time this is not the case is the Missile Launcher)

Sanctjud wrote:
The Command squad has effectively 4 members in it that takes hits.
The Ass Termies have 5 more models that will always get their 2+ (as opposed to the Command Squad who can lose their effective 2+) and have more models to boot, and have more attacks in combat at the cost of losing out on shooting.

no, only 4 models more, or my command squad would be 45pts cheaper.

Sanctjud wrote:
Ass termies can still be useful in shooting phase: by running, as to get out of template formation and maximize the closeness early on.

Assault Terms should never be foot slogging, toss them in a raider, or go cheap and teleport them down

__________

almost forgot, my Command Squad can Sweep and Advance, terminators cannot.

Sanctjud wrote:So? The Ass Termies have twice the number of attacks....so will kill everyone.
Command squad has half the number of attacks, kill some... then give the opponent the chance to pass a ld test ( there are fearless/stubborn units out there)

I would rather get stuck in combat, it keeps the unit away from shots, they get a 3++ in close combat, so unless I am facing a 30 boys on the charge or the equal of, I should be fine (of course the dices gods be can be fickle at the worse possable time)

_______________

Sanctjud wrote:
I’m not saying they need to be scoring to be useful. You are putting words in my mouth. For something that is so expensive it’s taking away from the rest of the list. Scoring models are generally the backbone of the list.
Which brings me to a more important question: what’s the rest of the list look like? Actually put it down.

Hq
Captain
Relic Blade
Digital Weapons
Storm Shield
170pts
command squad
4x TH/SS
4x Plasma Gun
Standard
370pts
Drop Pod 35pts

Hq
Vulkan
190pts

Troop
+5 marines
melta gun
las cannon
Power Fist
plasma pistol
225pts
rhino
extra armor
dozer blade
hunter killer
65pts

Troop
melta gun
missile launcher
combi flamer
power fist
210pts
rhino
extra armor
dozer blade
55pts

Elite
Celestian Squad
flamer
heavy flamer
Krak grenades
Vet Superior
103pts
immolator
dozer blade
extra armor
cost 75pts

so 2pts unders. at 1500pts I am normally bringing 2 tac squads for my scoring units, I could bring more but they aren't a must.

Sanctjud wrote:
Don’t forget the pod.
That ends up them costing more for their delivery.

35pts, 5pts more than a Power Fists.
comparing to the 200+pts for a Land Raider, before upgrades its not a bad price.

Sanctjud wrote:
To get them to come in later, that means you need too purchase more pods.
Denying a single obj. is a great, but a 10 man squad (combat squadded or not) can cover 2 objectives.

or just put them in a rhino/razorback, a Drop Pod was just the option that seemed viable to me. as for a 5 man Tac Squad, they can do the same job, but no where near as effectively.

Sanctjud wrote:
Where do you get Ld 10 rerolls? You have no standard purchased.
In addition, don’t overestimate their durability, I’ve seen far too many keel over to weight of fire… funny enough usually the apoth.

your right,fixed in my current list.

Sanctjud wrote:
How can you take more options when this option costs so much?
You are viewing it as a bonus when it really isn’t, it’s only a bonus if you keep it cheap and then have the points to dump on other squads.

in smaller games your right, but at 2000pts, it gives me the chance to fill all of my elite slots.

Sanctjud wrote:
What points levels are you talking about…an Elite slot is not a lot to ‘lose’ to get a squad of 10 Assault terminators…..combat squadded that’s like 2 Elite slots in one.
They are cheaper by 5 points for less than half the durability and half the offensive power in combat……..they offset this by having a ranged attack… that can be mitigated by cover saves.

they offset their draw backs by being flexable, able to do two jobs decently. they are not the answer to all issues I will face, but they can do two jobs all in one unit to some level of success. and in truth they can be changed to fit the task at hand, I can give them Flamers, Melta guns, or the Plasma Gun, or a Combi weapon. they are far more flexable than the assault terms, yes cover can negate their attacks but normally when in the enemies back field it won't be such an issue.

Thank you, Sanctjud, you may have just decided the core of my next tourney list.

Lysander messes really well with a Command Squad, but his Thunderhammer is Master Crafter anyway, so you don't need Vulkan. He does give all the bolters and Bolt pistols re-rolls, comes with a Bolster Defenses.

@Garuss Acine:

Re: Termies running: that is what I meant.
You know the part about getting out of template formation...that indicates deepstriking in.

And since they have no weapons, they can happily run to get closer.

I wouldn't say to 'never footslog' termies... it's how you are using it that counts, much like your squad.

Forgive me, yes only 4 more models... but that's still 2 times the models that take the harder hits and 2 times the damage dealing in combat to offset the shooting.
But the 355 need a pod so that’s now 390 points… only 10 points more for 10 termies.

Str 8+ Ap3+ weapons...there’s more than just MLs. But I noted them to illustrate that 3+/++ FNP is a bit less effective than having just plain old 2+/3++.

You’d rather get stuck in combat, and yet you mention sweeping advance as a bonus. Either will do well enough against a stubborn/fearless… but a 10 man termy squad can charge more things at any given time, only getting better if at least one is a walker or is stubborn.

35pts, 5pts more than a Power Fists.
comparing to the 200+pts for a Land Raider, before upgrades its not a bad price.

It depends… but on a command squad, a pod is 10 more than a Powerfist…
No where did I say a LR is needed.
You say they pod in, I will compare it to teleporting in, it’s as similar (but different) as it gets between them.

I’d be iffy about 2000 fitting that much into just stern/elites.

Backfield…? I don’t know about the terrain in your gaming group, but most in mine are area terrain like…where squads sit in it and get cover…so direction is of little use.
They are flexible WHEN GEARING THEM> I’m talking about in game and more specifically with deployment purposes.

The only way to make them come later in a pod is with more pods.
Both termies and the CS can start on the board.
But should termies DS, they come in starting 2 and onwards.
In addition at a 10 man squad you can choose to have 1 or 2 squads of termies, either of which is a much large area of influence.

As to the list:


In general, I would call it fragile. I looks more like a fun/try it out/models I like sort of list, which if it is solely for that then I have nothing to add.
It would have sever problems with armies that are mech/fast/that can maximize the usage of reserves.
And that’s a lot of armies out there that do that.

@Mahu:

Heh, I’m glad to be of assistance.
I missed that it was master crafted already.
Becareful, he only allows rr of bolter-equivs to the squad he is with…but bolster is nice for a static unit.

But yea, Lysander would love to absorb those really dangerous wounds as he’s crazy on the durability side.

Sanctjud wrote:
As to the list:
In general, I would call it fragile. I looks more like a fun/try it out/models I like sort of list, which if it is solely for that then I have nothing to add.
It would have sever problems with armies that are mech/fast/that can maximize the usage of reserves.
And that’s a lot of armies out there that do that.

it may look it, but in truth I have had a great success with it, I have played with a slight varient with a 5 man assault squad+ chap, and 5 man term squad. I have won 2 out of 4 games with it, most of my losses can be given to insanly bad rolls in one game (two ones on a twin linked melta gun, a 1 to fire a plasma cannon, and then a plasma gun hit on rear armor with a 1 to pen just bad rolls, that very much cost me the game). and the other was lack of table time against chaos marines. the other games where against the new Wolves, and necrons, both where land slide wins in my favors. one was tabled, and the other was just by sheer KPs.(not braging just stating) maybe in your area its fragile, but it seems to work here, as for terrian, we tend to treat it differently, cover is cover, your either in it or your not, and this comes down to a case by case call. most of the players are decent, though the TFG in the store is something else....but I won't bore you all with that nonsense

/Shrug.
I rather have bat reps w/ pics to be honest.

I wouldn't rate Necrons at the same competitive level as marines... and have no option for uber units.
Space Wolves are a new codex, i doubt anyone is a vet with it yet.

Model count: 33 infantry, 3 Rhino Chassis, and a pod. 10 minimum Kill points is around average, while scoring models are a bit under average.
That is pretty small at 1500.
The command squad can't be everywhere, and have NO CHOICE but to come in first turn, and have no speed, bar stealing someone elses ride when the game progresses.

3 Rhinos are both nice and somewhat lacking at the same time. No other armor saturation.

There is also a painful lack of melta weapons…you don’t use Vulkan’s bonuses that much.

/shrug.
It would seem fast and mech lists would run circles around it…not needing to engage the uber squad and can concentrate on other targets.

I think the pod is actually a disadvantage to the uber squad.

well I mix in flamers/hvy flamers to help take advantage of the rules as well, not to mention the hammers become master crafted, so thats 4 Hammers, 1 flamer, 1 hvy flamer and 2 melta guns, I don't have the money or desire to bring multi meltas, at the moment I don't have any other units that can gave an advatage from vulkan's rules, plaining to add a speeder or two and more transports, then I have a bunch of bikes coming.

this list is by no means hard, but its fun, not spammy, and can win when played properly, if I had the cash trust me I wouldbe making a list to max out of Pedro and Vulkan's rules, 30 Sterns(2hvy flamers/8combi meltas/power fist), 30 Tacticals(melta/multi melta, PF), 9 Land Speeders(Hvy Flame/Multi Melta) and maybe some dakka preds or vindicators for support. but as it is, I don't have the cash, so my lists will be lacking in some departments.

Seems like a mean (and expensive points and money wise) list there.
I'd be interested in play testing that if it's under or at 2000...but it doesn't look it though.

HQ
Vulkan
190pts

HQ
Pedro
175pts

Troop
Tactical Squad
+5marines
melta gun
multi melta
combi flamer
melta bomb
190pts

Troop
Tactical Squad
+5marines
melta gun
multi melta
combi flamer
melta bomb
190pts



Elite
Stern Guard
+5 Stern
2x Heavy Flamers
8x Combi Meltas
melta bomb
310pts

Elite
Stern Guard
+5 Stern
2x Heavy Flamers
8x Combi Meltas
melta bomb
310pts

Drop Podx5
175pts

Fast Attack
Land Speeder Squadron
3x Hvy Flamer/Multi Melta
210pts

Fast Attack
Land Speeder Squadron
3x Hvy Flamer/Multi Melta
210pts

1960pts total, I think at 2500pts you could bring the list into up to 9 speeders and another squad of sterns, its Kp rich but it forces your oppent into one of two choices, deploy and face a drop pod alpha strike, or, reserve everything and give the speeders a chance to zoom over unharrassed into their kill zones, with the first 3 pods coming down setting up the units in cover, or if you can, sit on the table edge and prevent units from coming in.

Powerfist
Champion
melta Gun
melta Gun

on Bikes.

Is dirt cheap and a great little unit to place librarians and commanders with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Powerfist
Champion
melta Gun
melta Gun

on Bikes.

Is dirt cheap and a great little unit to place librarians and commanders with.

@Hollismason:
265 ehhhh.
I think it looks lean and low on fat, but it's still really expensive for my tastes...

For 35 more points you could get another Full Biker squad with fist, 2 melta, hvy bolter.
Throw in another 10 points and you have a MM instead.

Hmmm.
Sadly, even with just fist and 2 meltas, it's at 250...the cost of a Land Raider.
Just can't make them 'cheap' when my tastes are involved...disappointing.

What's more wierd for me, at 250, the first thing that came to my mind was:

I rather get two Techmarines with Full Harness, Power weapon on bikes.
Cost the same 250.

You get more fist attacks, more power weapon attacks, lose out on 2 meltas, but gain 2 flamers and 2 TL Plasma Pistols.

So instead of the more effective bodies you bury them in biker squads, and augment both their ranged and combat prowess.

Sadly there are a few problems with this idea as well....

Where Command Squads shine is when you put them on bikes in a Khan outflanking list. If Command Squad are not on bikes might as well get Assault terminators.

Khan
-Moondrakken

Command Squad
-4 Melta
-Company Champion
-1 Lightening Claw
-Thunder Hammer
-1 Power Fist
-3 Storm Shields
-Bikes

This squad is really mean if you outflank with it so you hopefully are assaulting on the turn you come in and don't get shot too much.

That squad is 565 points.
Um...hell no in my book.

Still dies at the same rate to weight of fire.

I see Khan as more for Hit and Run, then for Furious Charge, and then a way way distance away Outflanking.