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HQ: Company Command Squad
Infantry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon (x4); Meltagun (x4)

Troops: Veteran Squad
Infantry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon (x9); Lasgun (x6); Meltagun
(x3); Chimera

Troops: Veteran Squad
Infantry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon (x9); Lasgun (x6); Meltagun
(x3); Chimera

Troops: Veteran Squad
Infantry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon (x9); Lasgun (x6); Flamer
(x3); Chimera

Troops: Veteran Squad
Infantry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon (x9); Lasgun (x6);
Plasmagun (x3) ; Chimera

Fast Attack: Devil Dog Squadron (2)
Vehicle (Tank, Fast); Melta Cannon; Multi-Melta
Vehicle (Tank, Fast); Melta Cannon; Multi-Melta

Fast Attack: Vendetta Gunship Squadron (1)
Vehicle (Fast, Skimmer); Transport Capacity: 12 Models; Extra Armor; Searchlight; Twin-linked Lascannon
(x3)

Fast Attack: Vendetta Gunship Squadron (2)
Vehicle (Fast, Skimmer); Transport Capacity: 12 Models; Extra Armor; Searchlight; Twin-linked Lascannon
(x3)
Vehicle (Fast, Skimmer); Transport Capacity: 12 Models; Extra Armor; Searchlight; Twin-linked Lascannon
(x3)

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Squadron (1)
Leman Russ Executioner
Vehicle (Tank); Lumbering Behemoth; Executioner Plasma Cannon; Heavy Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke
Launchers; Plasma Cannon Sponsons (x2)

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Squadron (1)
Naked Leman Russ

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Squadron (1)
Naked Leman Russ

TOTAL: 1900

Now, my dilemma is that I don't really know what to do with the last 100 points. I could drop a vet squad in the second vendetta squadron with meltas as a second sacrificial melta squad (first being CCS), or I could drop the plas altogether and pick up something totally different (dropping plas squad frees up major points)

Any help is appreciated!

EDIT:

The general idea of this army is to have the Devil Dogs at the front, leading the charge with melta, followed by russes and then chimeras with more melta-y goodness, sitting behind russ wall. The plasma chimera is for sitting on home base objectives in capture and control missions.

Another option I have is that I can take creed with the remaining points and give the DDs scout, which really puts them in my opponents face first turn. Not sure how good that tactic is though

apwill4765 wrote:HQ: Company Command Squad
Infantry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon (x4); Meltagun (x4)

Good

Troops: Veteran Squad
Infantry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon (x9); Lasgun (x6); Meltagun
(x3); Chimera

Troops: Veteran Squad
Infantry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon (x9); Lasgun (x6); Meltagun
(x3); Chimera

Troops: Veteran Squad
Infantry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon (x9); Lasgun (x6); Flamer
(x3); Chimera

Troops: Veteran Squad
Infantry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon (x9); Lasgun (x6);
Plasmagun (x3) ; Chimera

I like the 2 melta and the plasma squads, but I think flamers are a waste on vets. You can fire the chimera heavy flamer when you get close anyways, and if you want to cover a bunch of models using flamers fired from a firing point, you usually have to turn the chimera sideways, exposing side armour. I would recommend replacing the flamers with meltas, 4 melta teams is a good number for 2k points. The plasma will be useful for dealing with MC's and termies, so I would keep it as is.

Fast Attack: Devil Dog Squadron (2)
Vehicle (Tank, Fast); Melta Cannon; Multi-Melta
Vehicle (Tank, Fast); Melta Cannon; Multi-Melta

Fast Attack: Vendetta Gunship Squadron (1)
Vehicle (Fast, Skimmer); Transport Capacity: 12 Models; Extra Armor; Searchlight; Twin-linked Lascannon
(x3)

Fast Attack: Vendetta Gunship Squadron (2)
Vehicle (Fast, Skimmer); Transport Capacity: 12 Models; Extra Armor; Searchlight; Twin-linked Lascannon
(x3)
Vehicle (Fast, Skimmer); Transport Capacity: 12 Models; Extra Armor; Searchlight; Twin-linked Lascannon
(x3)

I'm not a big fan of devil dogs, trying to hit even a land raider with a template is usually pretty frustrating. 2 of them with multimeltas in a squadron will probably be able to wreck something, but I think there are probably better ways to spend those points. With 4 melta vet squads and 3 vendettas, you should be pretty much covered for anti tank. Melta vets and devil dogs also have basically the same targets (heavy tanks and 2+ save guys if necessary), and you don't really need 6 units that are designed to kill the same thing.

Have you thought about running the standard 1 hellhound/ 1 bane wolf squadron? The idea is that you allocate hits to the dog that isn't as useful against whoever you're fighting. So if you're fighting marines, you would allocate hits to the hellhound first. I feel like your list is a bit lacking in anti-infantry right now, and a hellhound/bane wolf squadron instead of the devil dogs would probably change that. You could give them both multimeltas if you feel like you're still lacking anti tank.

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Squadron (1)
Leman Russ Executioner
Vehicle (Tank); Lumbering Behemoth; Executioner Plasma Cannon; Heavy Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke
Launchers; Plasma Cannon Sponsons (x2)

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Squadron (1)
Naked Leman Russ

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Squadron (1)
Naked Leman Russ

The plascutioner is a crazy powerful tank, but you're also putting a lot of your blast eggs in one basket. People are going to be gunning for that thing, if for no reason other than it cost you 230 points. The executioner is for taking out high priority targets, so you usually want to keep it moving, looking for a good line of sight on your opponents super unit. I usually just run mine with a hull lascannon as a result, sponsons aren't worth it if you're going to be moving around. The lascannon synergizes decently with the executioner cannon, you can use it to put another wound on an MC or a squad of termies, or to help penetrate a light armour vehicle if there's nothing else around to shoot.

The LRBT's on the other hand usually get into a good firing lane far away from the fighting and stay there, so plasma cannon sponsons can improve their fire power quite a bit. I would recommend dropping the PC's on the executioner and either running it naked or giving it a lascannon, and giving PC's to the 2 LRBT's.


TOTAL: 1900

Now, my dilemma is that I don't really know what to do with the last 100 points. I could drop a vet squad in the second vendetta squadron with meltas as a second sacrificial melta squad (first being CCS), or I could drop the plas altogether and pick up something totally different (dropping plas squad frees up major points)

Any help is appreciated!

EDIT:

The general idea of this army is to have the Devil Dogs at the front, leading the charge with melta, followed by russes and then chimeras with more melta-y goodness, sitting behind russ wall. The plasma chimera is for sitting on home base objectives in capture and control missions.

Another option I have is that I can take creed with the remaining points and give the DDs scout, which really puts them in my opponents face first turn. Not sure how good that tactic is though

Creed isn't really worth it unless you build your army around his abilities, which usually means a big infantry force. One option would be to give your CCS a chimera, in case you decide you don't want to suicide them (you're going second, or your opponent properly shielded his valuable tanks with infantry). Your list is actually really close to what I run now, but I run an extra melta CCS and plasmavet squad instead of the 2 devil dogs. The 2 CCS setup really starts to shine at 2000+, when you have enough vet squads around that a couple of them are always going to be walking because their ride was popped, or jumping out to take down something that really needs to die.

I've reworked my list as per your suggestions. The thing is, this list is missing one little bit of symmetry that makes one of my vendettas an obvious target. If you see 30 points to free up anywhere that you think would be better suited to evening things out I would appreciate it.

HQ

CCS 4x Melta Chimera

CCS 4x Melta Chimera

TROOPS

Vets 3x MG Demo

Vets 3x MG

Vets 3x MG Chimera

Vets 3x MG Chimera

Vets 3x Plas Chimera

Vets 3x Plas Chimera


FAST ATTACK

Vendetta

Vendetta

HEAVY SUPPORT

LRBT 2x Plas Sponsons

LRBT 2x Plas Sponsons

LR Executioner Naked (no points for LC)

I'm also starting to question executioner. For the same points as a naked executioner you can pick up a LRBT with plas sponsons. That is str 8 ap3 goodness and 2 str 7 ap2 templates. How does that compare to the executioner? Wondering if it isnt a little better.

More chance of hitting with more templates on the executioner I suppose, and it would smoke terminators.

I like what you said about flamers, and as I don't really face horde anyway, I dont know why i was worried about it (my meta game is BA and Chaos)


The symmetry I was worried about is one of my meltavet vendetta squads doesnt have demo and the other one does. Any suggestions?

standered melta spam, list has worked over and over agen, but what are you going to do to orks? 2000pts is a lot of green on the table.
and on the exe, change it out for a LRBT with the plas on the side. yes i know that would make 3 but a naked exe just isnt worth the cost.

Agree with komosunder, it seems to me that a LRBT with plasma sponsons is almost always better than an Executioner. I mean, against light-medium vehicles it's significantly better; if you're not facing a 2+Sv unit, it's vastly better; if you are, who cares? You still put 2 plasma blasts on him. (also, many 2+Sv units now carry a 3+inv, so it's better to just get more hits)

For the demo charge, would you drop 2 vet units to flamers instead of meltas? Or drop 1 plasma unit to flamers, since you've already got a heavy support section full of plasma. I think either choice would strengthen rather than weaken your troops (by providing a better spread of guns) and you could afford demolitions.

On that note ('cause I think komosunder is right about lack of anti-horde) do you run your chimeras with heavy flamers on the hull? I've been on the receiving end of this, and I think it's a great way to discourage hordes of infantry.

In my all comers list I will definitely add some more flame / anti horde capability. My meta game is all about blood angels and CSM, (I mostly am playing one of 2 people, as I'm not a fan of pickup games).


For the exe, I've already purchased a LR demolisher kit and assembled it. The weapon choices are left variable however, so how about a demolisher, or I drop 40 pts elsewhere and kit out the Exe, making it more worthwhile. I could for instance drop one melta unit to flamers and drop demolitions on the vet squad.


Thanks for all the suggestions!!

Also, the list is a little standard I know. My first list I thought was a more kind of creative variation, but the changes the first poster listed all made a lot of sense, and so I guess standard is standard for a reason =P

apwill4765 wrote:I've reworked my list as per your suggestions. The thing is, this list is missing one little bit of symmetry that makes one of my vendettas an obvious target. If you see 30 points to free up anywhere that you think would be better suited to evening things out I would appreciate it.

HQ

CCS 4x Melta Chimera

CCS 4x Melta Chimera

Good stuff. If you play a few games with the 2 CCS setup and find yourself wanting an extra scoring melta squad instead, feel free to swap the extra CCS out. Extra CCS versus melta vet squad is more personal preference than anything else, both options have advantages (orders/cheaper versus scoring basically)

TROOPS

Vets 3x MG Demo

Vets 3x MG

Vets 3x MG Chimera

Vets 3x MG Chimera

Vets 3x Plas Chimera

Vets 3x Plas Chimera

The chimera mounted squads all look great. Melta vets mounted in a vendetta don't work very well though, mainly because the vendetta will usually be skulking around the back of the board, putting fire into enemy armour and MCs from a safe distance away. If you want those melta vets inside to get into the fight, the vendetta is going to have to fly really close to the enemy line, and that exponentially increases the chances of it getting popped.

I'm assuming you want to use those vets to get a first turn alpha strike off on high priority targets like land raiders, but the first turn alpha strike is actually pretty difficult to pull off, especially if your opponent has had it done to him before. You definitely want to be able to threaten your opponent with the alpha strike though, if only to make him deploy further back or reserve his valuable armour. What I will usually do is put the 2 melta CCS in the vendettas and then line them up on the edge of my deployment zoneif I get first turn. If my opponent isn't thinking straight, I will gladly sacrifice the 2 CCS to take out a couple important vehicles. If he deploys in a way that stops the alpha strike, just use the scout move to move the vendettas back, hop the CCS' out and put them back in their chimeras turn 2.

So, a couple options here:
Drop one of the melta vet squads, and pick up a valkyrie to transport the other squad (helps with anti horde, and a valkyrie is a much better transport as it can move 12 and fire everything)
Drop one of the melta vet squads and pick up another vendetta for extra redundancy, change the meltas in the other squad to flamers (The flamer squad in the vendetta can be used to flame things off objectives last couple turns. If the vendetta they are in dies, just run them over to one of the other vendettas)
Drop both melta vet squads and pick up the bane wolf/hell hound squadron I was talking about earlier (helps with anti infantry in general, but 2 more ground vehicles may mean traffic jams if you don't move your tanks well)
Drop one melta vet squad and give the other a chimera, use the extra points to give demolitions to a couple squads (helps you mess up walkers, and the demo charges improve your MEQ killing power. This is a risky option though, the demo charge can easily scatter back onto the chimera)


FAST ATTACK

Vendetta

Vendetta


HEAVY SUPPORT

LRBT 2x Plas Sponsons

LRBT 2x Plas Sponsons

LR Executioner Naked (no points for LC)

Awesome, LRBT w/ plas split up and hang back, using their long range to mess up space marines that fall out of transports your vendettas shoot. The main advantage to the executioner is that you can move and still fire 3 AP2 templates. It's debateable whether it's better than a LRBT w/ plas, but I usually keep one with a hull lascannon around. You never know where termies are going to deepstrike, and if you have to move to get into position the LRBTs are only going to be firing 1 AP2 template, whereas the executioner will be dropping 3 AP2 templates on them.

Demolishers are sweet at 1000 points and mediocre at 2000 points imo. They have to be within 24 to shoot things and at 2000 points there are usually a couple things around (hiding behind buildings, waiting in fast transports etc.) that can jump in and assault or melta them when they get that close. I take 2 of them at 1000 points though, they are excellent generalists, killing terminators and marines easily, instant killing T5 guys, and are also decent at anti-tank.

I'm also starting to question executioner. For the same points as a naked executioner you can pick up a LRBT with plas sponsons. That is str 8 ap3 goodness and 2 str 7 ap2 templates. How does that compare to the executioner? Wondering if it isnt a little better.

More chance of hitting with more templates on the executioner I suppose, and it would smoke terminators.

I like what you said about flamers, and as I don't really face horde anyway, I dont know why i was worried about it (my meta game is BA and Chaos)


The symmetry I was worried about is one of my meltavet vendetta squads doesnt have demo and the other one does. Any suggestions?

I know you usually play against marines, but you should definitely try to make a good all comers list to play with. If you can play and win with a list that isn't optimized for one particular enemy, you'll be in good shape for any tournaments in the future. Your skill as a player will also improve, as you'll be forced to use units that are ineffective against an opponent in creative ways, eg. blocking enemy firing lanes with a hellhound if your're playing SM.

Also, just wanted to add something about mech vet lists: a guard list with a mech vet core is by no means cookie cutter/boring. The mech vet core is so common because it's a no brainer, every list needs troops and every list needs a way to get troops to objectives, and vets in a chimera is both of those things as well as a nice amount of firepower. Once you have that vet core though, there are many different options that are all competitive and effective. Vendettas, valkyries, bane wolfs, hell hounds, hydras, manticores, griffons, colossi, medusas, LRBTs, executioners, exterminators, platoons with heavy weapons are just some of the things that are really effective and can be mix and matched in a competitive list. There are also tons of other options that can be effective if applied correctly, like a vet squad that outflanks or infiltrates with Harker, or a SWS with a demo charge and flamers. Guard has lots of variety, and many different mech vet lists are possible as a result.

Vassal tested a list almost identical to this one, except i took your advice and dropped one of the sac vet squads, picked up a chimera for the other group, and put the teeth back on the executioner by dropping plas sponsons on it, and dropped krak grenades on one of the CCSs, just to fill out the last 5 points. It has worked amazingly well, but I think that alpha striking vendettas may not be the way to go, just like you said. definitely not easy to make worthwhile. sure i popped a vindi / rhino, but both vendettas got popped on the first chaos turn. I think waiting in an outflanking position for the flank to weaken.

But anyway, here is the final list, and thanks for all the help!




HQ

CCS 4x Melta Chimera

CCS 4x Melta Chimera


TROOPS

Vets 3x MG Demo Chimera

Vets 3x MG Chimera

Vets 3x MG Chimera

Vets 3x Plas Chimera

Vets 3x Plas Chimera



FAST ATTACK

Vendetta

Vendetta


HEAVY SUPPORT

LRBT 2x Plas Sponsons

LRBT 2x Plas Sponsons

LR Executioner 2x plas sponsons


One more thought, could the points i spent on the demolitions vets be spent better elsewhere? I could put LC on the two russes,but with all that template-y goodness, I think they are better off focusing on hard infantry. not sure though.

apwill4765 wrote:Vassal tested a list almost identical to this one, except i took your advice and dropped one of the sac vet squads, picked up a chimera for the other group, and put the teeth back on the executioner by dropping plas sponsons on it, and dropped krak grenades on one of the CCSs, just to fill out the last 5 points. It has worked amazingly well, but I think that alpha striking vendettas may not be the way to go, just like you said. definitely not easy to make worthwhile. sure i popped a vindi / rhino, but both vendettas got popped on the first chaos turn. I think waiting in an outflanking position for the flank to weaken.

But anyway, here is the final list, and thanks for all the help!




HQ

CCS 4x Melta Chimera

CCS 4x Melta Chimera


TROOPS

Vets 3x MG Demo Chimera

Vets 3x MG Chimera

Vets 3x MG Chimera

Vets 3x Plas Chimera

Vets 3x Plas Chimera



FAST ATTACK

Vendetta

Vendetta


HEAVY SUPPORT

LRBT 2x Plas Sponsons

LRBT 2x Plas Sponsons

LR Executioner 2x plas sponsons


One more thought, could the points i spent on the demolitions vets be spent better elsewhere? I could put LC on the two russes,but with all that template-y goodness, I think they are better off focusing on hard infantry. not sure though.

Nice, this is a really mean list. Don't bother with the LC on the russ, like you said, they are there to shoot up things that fall out of the transports your vets and vendettas pop. Demolitions is of questionable worth, you can only throw the demo charge 6 inches, so there's a decent chance the template can scatter back onto you. That said, if you can kill a bunch of marines with it, it just easily paid for itself. The meltabombs are only really useful if you're doing an alpha strike (multi charge a bunch of enemy vehicles, but again, hard to pull off), as you need to be out of your transport to charge and vets out of their transport get wrecked. Might stop dreads from charging the squad, but there will likely be lots of other things around that dreads can charge anyways.

There's a couple things you can do with the 30 points:
Pick up an officer of the fleet. An astropath won't be very useful to you, as you only have 2 things that can outflank, and you will usually want the vendettas on the board lighting things up from turn one. An officer of the fleet can help stop outflankers and deep strikers that want to blow up your tanks, but this can be minimized by spreading your russ out and keeping them away from the table edges anyways.
Put an autocannon in each of the plasma squads. You have to stay still to fire it, but it can be a good way to help pop transports and put wounds on MC's the first turn or two. The plasma teams can hang back a bit anyways, they don't need to be right in the enemies face to do their job, like the meltavets. If it looks like you're going to need the plasma vets at the front line though, don't bother firing the autocannon. It's only 10 points for each one anyways, it just makes the squad a bit more versatile. Use the last 10 points to give one of the vendettas heavy bolter sponsons. 10 points for 2 heavy bolters sponsons is a steal, but keep in mind they are BS3 and you probably won't be firing them until the last couple turns of the game, when most of the enemy armour is already dead.