Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have about twenty heavy weapon crews in my IG army. All are converted using regular (standing) cadian models for gunners' mates, and two regulars for missile launchers and crews 'setting up' or 'in transit'. (This is to make use of the fact that for every 2-man heavy weapon squad you buy, you get 5 heavy weapons in the box, but only two guys kneeling. Get those guns into action!). Needless to say, I have had to buy or make more large bases than I was supplied with.

At my hobby shop the Citadel large bases come in three styles - 60mm (which is what the crews are supplied with), 40mm (for Terminators and the like, i think), and something called 'Extra Large Bases', which don't give a diameter but come in a smidgeon smaller, and slightly thinner, than the 60mm bases. (I'll measure the difference and edit this post in a bit).

Most of my play is casual, so it doesn't matter too much. However, I plan on hitting more tourneys, and don't want problems when I show up. I've already put some of my crews, specifically heavy bolters and mortars, on the 'Extra Large Bases'. These weapons are a little more compact than lascannons/autocannons, and look better on the 'Extra Large Bases' imo. Before the new codex I was playing the missile launchers on their own 25mm bases, because i think the Tallarn/Steel Legion ML's are like that, but have since put them on the 'Extra Large Bases' as well. Recently, I saw another Guard army with the heavy weapon crews squeezed onto the 40mm bases! It didn't really look right, but what Guard Commander really likes having one base more than half the size of the other 8 bases in the squad combined? By the Emperor, not one of us does!

Is there a solid rule out there? I seem to remember hearing or reading something like "models can be on a base one size bigger, but no smaller than the bases supplied", but that may have instructions for a painting contest or maybe even just a bad dream. If anyone knows how tourneys handle this I'd much appreciate that information, but I also wouldn't mind hearing opinions or experiences regarding heavy weapons bases in casual play as well.

The rule now us to use the 60mm base, simply because the 2x25mm base teams are no longer able to be fielded, as HWT are 1 model now, not 2.

As for the rule you remember hearing, that was in 4th edition. Now the rule is to use the base the model came on unless your opponent is ok with it.
However, as I said, the 25mm HWT are not even codex legal anymore, so you are stuck with the 60mm base.

Last edition there was a rule that models could be on bigger bases than those supplied, but not smaller.

This edition, the rule is just to use the base supplied.

Guard Heavy teams are a constant source of debate. Older teams came on separate 25mm bases. In the case of the old metal guns, a lot of them didn't have bases at all.

For a while (up until GW released the current 60mm bevelled bases) some of the teams were coming with the flat 'Extra Large Bases'

Up until the last edition of the codex, players had used just about every base size imaginable for thier teams. Until now, with the team consolidated into a single two-wound model, it really didn't matter a great deal.

With the current rules, you would be better off sticking with the 60mm or Extra Large. Either should be fine.

Thanks Gwar. Do you know the 'Extra Large Bases' i'm talking about? The thin ones? What are they for? When I measure them both, the 60mm bases (the ones supplied with the weapons) are actually more like 65mm (measuring the bottom of the base, as they are tapered edges), and the 'Extra Large Bases' are 60mm (no tapered edges). Confusing, as I don't think this tape measure is that crappy and I'm pretty sure, but not certain, that I am not an idiot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh just saw insaniak's post...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Perhaps I am an idiot. My heavy weapons guardsman have been taking extra damage for half a decade, soaking up anything that reached the bottom of the base. It must reach the top of the base. I'm going with the thinnies from now on, and highlighting the top edge of the thickies to make it easier to tell when looking from above. Perhaps other idiots will learn from me, and thus my idiocy will at least not be absurd.

murdog wrote: My heavy weapons guardsman have been taking extra damage for half a decade, soaking up anything that reached the bottom of the base. It must reach the top of the base.

Sorry, but where are you getting that idea?

I just mean i was a bigger target than need be. I've been playing that the bottom of the base is where you measure to/from. But it is the top of the base that is 60mm, which is the same as the thin, unbevelled bases. It isn't that much different, but it is, at the same time.

You do measure to the bottom of the base. Or, more precisely, you measure to the closest edge of the base. There is no rule that says to only measure to the edge of the top surface.

But that's the whole point of this post - the bases are not the same size. The 60mm bases, which were supplied with my crews, are actually closer to 65mm when measured across the bottom. The bases sold as 'Extra Large Bases' are 60mm, and the edges are not angled, so top and bottom are the same. If you place an Extra Large Base over a 60mm base, it is the same size as the top of the 60mm base. Therefore one should use the top of the 60mm base for consistency, no? And to make sure you aren't presenting an extra 5mm of diameter as a target.

No. You measure to the edge of the base, regardless of which base you are using.
And the "solid rule" (that's not so solid) you're looking for is on page 3:
Citadel miniatures are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game.
Some players like to mount their models on impressive scenic bases. As mounting your models on different sized bases might affect the way they interact with the rules, make sure before the game that your opponent does not mind this.

So if, like me, you field an army made of RT-era IG models, it's fine to use the 25mm bases as that is what my heavy weapons guys came with. If you're like others that still field all-metal valhallans, mordians, etc, they came with 25mm/cavalry bases or none at all. Only the current plastic Cadian/Catachan heavy weapons teams come with, and therefor should be based on, the 60mm bases.
Conversions should be based according to the weapons used, ie if you use the weapons from the current plastic Cadians (as my lizardman IG army does), then they should be on 60mm bases. But when I originally built the lizzies, they used the old RT/2nd ed over-the-shoulder heavy weapons and were therefor based on 25mm bases.

The actual physical size of the bases is irrelevant. You mount models on the bases they are supplied with, in this case the 60mm bases. If GW started making 60mm bases which were actually a meter across it wouldn't matter, that would be the base you used. Saying 60mm base is just shorthand for 'The 60mm bases supplied by Games Workshop'. If you want to argue consistency then mount all your guys on the right bases.

As it is the extra large bases will be fine for most purposes as long as you don't get pissy trying to call someone 2 mm out of range. Do that and you can expect for you to be told to rebase all your guys.

Aramoro

Aramoro wrote:If GW started making 60mm bases which were actually a meter across it wouldn't matter, that would be the base you used.

Hey, GW have already warped English to the degree where it is unusable, they had better fething stay away from math!

I'm not getting pissy, and it's not something i'd argue about in a game, but a bigger base is a bigger base, dude. When you start talking 40mm or 25mm bases, how does that not start to make significant difference? Not just for placing templates, but for movement as well, since you can't move through spaces more narrow than your base.

Since I started this post, I realized that the top of the 60mm base is 60mm, so wouldn't you use that, since they're called 60mm bases? The ones called Extra Large Bases are 60mm, they are thin so they didn't need to be bevelled. I'm going with Insaniak - either should be fine (as they are the same size, but only if you ignore the bottom edge of the 60mm ones) therefore I'll likely switch to them eventually - just for consistency.

My heavy weapons crews were supplied with one base and 5 weapons - I need more bases if I want to use all the weapons - there are several possibilities from GW - thus the post.

murdog wrote:I'm not getting pissy, and it's not something i'd argue about in a game, but a bigger base is a bigger base, dude. When you start talking 40mm or 25mm bases, how does that not start to make significant difference? Not just for placing templates, but for movement as well, since you can't move through spaces more narrow than your base.

It does indeed make a difference. Which is why the rules tell you to use the base with which the models were supplied.

Now, that gets awkward and confusing when models are supplied with different bases over time, but the rule remains what it is.

Since I started this post, I realized that the top of the 60mm base is 60mm, so wouldn't you use that, since they're called 60mm bases?

You don't use just the top of the base because the rules don't say to do so.

Personally I think that they are called 60mm bases simply because the sureface on which you will put the model and any flock/sand etc. is 60mm, GW choosing to call it that as it is the relevant size for modelling and has nothing to do with the rules. Rules-wise it says you must use the base supplied and doesn´t mention anything of what part of the base you mesure to. Anywhere is fine.

i use the current range of plastic cadians, which i got in 3rd edition when they came out. i still have them on smaller bases so that they actually fit in my GW hardcase without ripping out the foam dividers. during games, i just put them base to base loader and gunner to signify the new 1-wound model. in case there is an issue about them being hit by a template, i have a 60mm base in the case without anything modelled on it for measuring. gw can kiss my *** if they think i'll rebase something from a completely painted/based army because they decided to change it's base.

The rules do not require you to update bases. They actually say the opposite, so you could be banned from tourneys if you do change them, but not reasonably if you don't. The only issue you have is that only one of the two figures is on the base, which is still RAW legal, although this defies the INAT.

thebetter1 wrote:The rules do not require you to update bases.

You are required to have models that fit the current rules, though.

So if you have old separately based HW teams, you're going to have to either rebase them to fit the current rules, or come up with a house rule to cover a model being spread over two separate bases and hope your opponents have no problem with that.

Just mock-up some 60mm display bases with 25mm inserts for the two old-style bases to fit into, giving you a single 2-wound "model" while still retaining their original bases. A win for all and no need for a house rule.

SJ

Ya, and when you do, I suggest using the thinner Citadel 60mm bases sold in my local store as 'Extra Large Bases' - if you've read this whole thread you know why. They look and play better.

insaniak wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:The rules do not require you to update bases.

You are required to have models that fit the current rules, though.

So if you have old separately based HW teams, you're going to have to either rebase them to fit the current rules, or come up with a house rule to cover a model being spread over two separate bases and hope your opponents have no problem with that.

And just where does it say that? My models (old IG) were sold for this game, albeit many years ago. Nowhere and at no time has GW ever made any statement about a requirement to retrofit models to current standards. Old IG are fine and legal just the way they are, on their old single model bases.

don_mondo wrote:And just where does it say that? My models (old IG) were sold for this game, albeit many years ago. Nowhere and at no time has GW ever made any statement about a requirement to retrofit models to current standards. Old IG are fine and legal just the way they are, on their old single model bases.

Well actually, there are no units in the new Codex: Imperial Guard that will allow you to use your 2 model HWT on a WYSIWYG basis, as HWT are now represented by a single model, not two.

Sucks, but that's GW for you. They don't need Vets, cause we don't buy as much stuff as moron 12 year olds with rich daddies.

don_mondo wrote:
And just where does it say that? My models (old IG) were sold for this game, albeit many years ago. Nowhere and at no time has GW ever made any statement about a requirement to retrofit models to current standards. Old IG are fine and legal just the way they are, on their old single model bases.

I am with Don Mondo here. All my Autocannons ( no base for weapon ), Missile launchers ( 2*25mm soldiers ) and Heavy Bolters ( no base for weapon )for my Regiment are old metal Catachans. On the Marine side around 3/4 of my regular Terminators are old metal models with 25mm bases. All my Assault Terminators on the other are the new plastic versions and consequently have the large "terminator bases".

At tournament or campaign level it just seems a little ridonkulous to me that one army's units would be so disadvantaged in movement and target size even though two players are using the same units from the same army.

Gwar! wrote:

don_mondo wrote:And just where does it say that? My models (old IG) were sold for this game, albeit many years ago. Nowhere and at no time has GW ever made any statement about a requirement to retrofit models to current standards. Old IG are fine and legal just the way they are, on their old single model bases.

Well actually, there are no units in the new Codex: Imperial Guard that will allow you to use your 2 model HWT on a WYSIWYG basis, as HWT are now represented by a single model, not two.

Yep, and that's why the old 'loaders' are now just regular lasguns. That HW gunner is now a single two-wound model on a 25mm base, which is what he came with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

murdog wrote:At tournament or campaign level it just seems a little ridonkulous to me that one army's units would be so disadvantaged in movement and target size even though two players are using the same units from the same army.

Yep, unfortuantely for my lazy self, seems like every supposed advantage lies with the large bases....................

Yeah, those wily GW people with their supposed "60mm" bases that are actually 62mm. What will they try next? Seriously, someone should get them upside the head with a 2x4.

/snark