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I've been running a very bloated CCS to help my gunline. I've been bringing a PW, Regimental Standard, a Medic, two Flamers, two Bodyguards and attaching a Lord Commissar to the unit. I add advisors as the battles get bigger (MoO at 1700 usually), and am even considering techpriests and priests for really big battles! It may be an awful pointsink but it is not useless. For context, I have alot of HW (20+ possible), one platoon with lots of guardsmen to make IS's and VS's, a chimera, hellhound, bassy, LRBT, and LRD. I adjust the number of IS, HWS and VS depending on pts, and also start leaving pieplates at home for smaller battles (about 1 per 600pts).

My first point is that if they are shooting the CCS they are not shooting the things that are killing their army, like my HWS's and pieplates. They may enjoy eating my super-expensive unit in CC, but they have to make it across the table first...

My second point is this: I plan for it to take alot of gunfire, ergo the big squad size. It will take fire because the commander/commissar/standard combo is making my gunline more resilient and more efficient. They do this by maximizing the chances of the gunline shooting better and staying longer. The Orders BiD and FomT make them shoot better. The Order GBitF make them stay longer. The Commissar makes sure they follow those orders. The Regimental Standard helps them stay longer by giving a reroll to morale and pinning tests. But they have to be near them to do their job, 12" for commander/standard and 6" for the LC. The RS/LC do not work from the safety of a chimera, so the unit will be a target. The medic saves wounds, and with every model added gets more useful. I don't beef up totally for smaller battles, and the 30pt advisors only start coming out at 1500+; priests and TP's would mostly be APOC level for me and may be getting out of hand - it's just a thought (it could get pretty effective for CC - powerfists, eviscerators, servo-arms). In addition to having their own useful abilities, these advisors have basic CC kit, which is the secondary job of the CCS.

Remember that it is the HWS that the CCS supports. Infantry squads have Ld8, and are usually screening the gunline or moving for objectives with their PCS and out of range of my CCS anyways. Voxes are not useful to me because HWS cannot take them. The commander/commissar/standard are there because with only 6 wounds, it is very easy to neutralize and eliminate HWS even in cover, by pinning them or forcing fallbacks from which they cannot rally because of being under half-strength. With Ld7 they will fail these checks. Maximizing the wounds with models and the medic keeps the commander/commissar/standard combo working longer, and can even deter an enemy from shooting at the squad, as it isn't threatening anything at range and it will take some dedicated fire to eliminate any of the C/C/S combo.

The main reason I take a PW for the commander is because it's on my model. I think one with just basic kit would be better, at least for smaller battles. The flamers could be dropped as well, but those times when i do want to charge something it is nice to have them. As everyone points out, the squad isn't exactly golden in CC.

The MoO can fire without line of site, you just don't get the BS adjustment to scatter. I'll be hiding my CCS behind vehicle or LOS-blocking terrain often. Inaccurate yes, but hey - it's a pinning pieplate with no minimum range for 30pts!

I find with the gunline you can usually tell by the end of round 2 how thing's are going - either you have stopped the trannys and put the hurt on their best assault units, or they are among your men wreaking havoc. If the enemy dares to stand on the other side of the field and shoot back, well then things are even more simple.

murdog wrote:I've been running a very bloated CCS to help my gunline. I've been bringing a PW, Regimental Standard, a Medic, two Flamers, two Bodyguards and attaching a Lord Commissar to the unit. I add advisors as the battles get bigger (MoO at 1700 usually), and am even considering techpriests and priests for really big battles! It may be an awful pointsink but it is not useless. For context, I have alot of HW (20+ possible), one platoon with lots of guardsmen to make IS's and VS's, a chimera, hellhound, bassy, LRBT, and LRD. I adjust the number of IS, HWS and VS depending on pts, and also start leaving pieplates at home for smaller battles (about 1 per 600pts).

I can't help but feel that those points are better spent elsewhere, but then again, I'm a bit of a treadhead. Why not turn your standard into Kell, then you get better leadership for the gunline and you also bypass Kell's bodyguard disadvantage due to already having two bodyguards? This also gives you your choice of a power weapon or a powerfist depending on what the situation demands.

Good point - Kell would reduce the need for the Lord Commissar for orders. However, the morale and pinning checks are just as important to me, and the LC + RS are the same points as Kell, with 2 extra wounds and a refractor field to help my durability.

At the moment I'm limited by WYSIWYG - I have the old command squad, no powerfists.

Instead of that one bloated squad, you could take 2x CCS with banner + special weapons in chimeras. They would last longer, probably be cheaper, give you more guns (chimeras), more armour saturation, more orders, more banners and probably be just as survivable, maybe more. (certainly more from assault at least)

But then I couldn't take the Lord Commissar, and my HWS would be testing on Ld7.

I guess this unit is more fragile than you think. The only expendable wounds are those on the bodyguards which come very pricey (though they help a lot in wound allocation) or flamers and no matter which other model in the squad is hit you'll suffer an expensive loss. Medic: no more fnp. LC: no more ld bubble. Commander: no more orders. RS: no more RS you got it by now I guess...
Still I see the use in ld. I just can't figure out a way to keep them alive past turn 1...

But turn one they are in the best area cover available, often behind a vehicle or LoS-blocking terrain, and surrounded by units on all sides. It should take serious effort to even get alot of shots at it.

Between the LC and the CC you have four wounds to give up without losing a model (not in the same round, but for the first two rounds of allocating wounds you have two wounds that won't give up a model). Like you say, the flamers and bodyguards are the most expendable, that's another four wounds. After my reserves come on, what use is the Astropath, and after enemy reserves, the MotF? (They may not even have any reserves). The MoO is inaccurate and basically a wildcard, and the further along the game goes the bigger the risk i'll hit my own troops if the enemy is advancing, or I am (which is to say the majority of games). The medic is important, half the unsaved wounds will be saved. He's probably the fourth most important, possibly more important than the standard as the LC's leadership shouldn't need much rerolling anyways.

It's all about keeping the CC/LC/RS going as long as possible and I'm positive that will usually be past turn 1 if not 2, and that's if the enemy is really trying hard to kill them. If they're doing that, they are not killing my units who are doing all the damage to them...


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Might as well throw carapace on there too, the more models the more it's worth it as well...

murdog wrote:Good point - Kell would reduce the need for the Lord Commissar for orders. However, the morale and pinning checks are just as important to me, and the LC + RS are the same points as Kell, with 2 extra wounds and a refractor field to help my durability.

At the moment I'm limited by WYSIWYG - I have the old command squad, no powerfists.

Kell is just an upgrade character, you could have Kell AND the Lord Commissar if you found the points for them.

I agree with the CCS in Chimeras. I only run one of them, bare bones, no additional models and I seldom have any problems with them surviving.

But do you run a LC? If so, where do you put him?

I have just equally as point heavy command squad in the form of Creed (Although I use the Macharius model) kell 2 bodyguards camo cloaks and a medic. I usually have alot of guardsmen on the board, and Creeds 24" range plus 4 orders combined with kell making all guard test on ld 10 for orders, more than makes up there cost. Giving bring it down to ratlings makes them extremely effective against monstrous creatures. and his special order is great to use on rough riders. Anyhow, I would never leave home without a tooled up command squad

I run something similler but between two CCS. One runs simmiler to this with a standard, medic and creed + kell in the larger games. This stays at the back of my gun line with the HWS of lascannons. HWS lascannons are fragile so they need the help of orders to take down the intended targets within the first 2 to 3 turns. After they do that I consider the Lascannons expendable since they have downed the enemies heavy tanks, mc's etc. The other CCS is mounted in a chimera with 4 plasma guns and the officer has a pfist and ppistol. This allows me to do some damage when MEQ's get close and I need to do some form of counter charge to stop my guard getting turned into mince meat in combat. Having this unit in the chimera improves its chance of survival and allows me to bolster the front end of my gunline with orders as well as having a unit that can reliably put hurt on termies and MEQ's prior to a close combat charge by other units tooled cheeply to put some damage into a close combat situation.

murdog wrote:But do you run a LC? If so, where do you put him?

Nope, no Lord Commissar. My second HQ is a DH Inquisitor Lord. Course, I don't use Heavy Weapon squads either, so no need for him. My merged platoons that have all the heavy weapons are already testing on a 9 (regular commissar in merged squads) with the vox reroll. Fails once in a great while, but fairly reselient.

Thanks for the comments, some interesting variations in the last few posts. No tips for taking advantage of the LC's leadership bubble, however, which is what I am trying to do...

murdog wrote:Thanks for the comments, some interesting variations in the last few posts. No tips for taking advantage of the LC's leadership bubble, however, which is what I am trying to do...

You could put him in a chimera, that way you measure the distance from the hull which gives you a little more range. Of course, it would be the LC and only the LC in that chimera... or if you really want to extend range in a ridiculous manner you could go with a valk/vend

The best would be a valkarie


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or maybe a fully mounted force in chimeras except for the gunline models

Where does it say that the LC's leadership works from a chimera? It's a no brainer if it does... I'll ask Gwar.

All hail to the CCS!
My setup includes the standart, a vox caster (for all those precious orders) and two grenade launchers, rounded up with a chimera. I am still not too happy with the weapons, but it's hard to decide: two small blasts, two meltas or better to take a heavy weapon?
I'd never send my HQ without a transport, as they will be shot a lot when in the open. Though I wonder, if the RS works from inside the transport?
The LC may stay behind any chimera/ vehicle he likes, as long as he keeps close to my hws. I see no reason to give any upgrades to him and I would strongly advise against putting him with the HQ, as one failed check is all it needs to take out my order system and I sure don't want that to happen

I finally got around to asking on YMDC, and the Standard and Lord Commissar's abilities both work from inside a transport. That kinda makes alot of this moot, as the CCS can hide in a tranny. Huh. Wish I would have asked earlier. The commies only execute with failed morale I think.

I agree that a chimera is a cheaper and better way to protect a CCS than a medic, carapace armour, bodyguards. But why oh why would you ever abbreviate transport to tranny?

" But why oh why would you ever abbreviate transport to tranny? "

that is almost sig worthy!! and i agree, why?!?!

back on topic, i agree with using the Chimera for the CCS.

Ummm, 3 less letters? Vernacular variety? Phonetic preference? Why would anyone care? I guess it's from years of Axis and Allies, always just called 'em trannies... i get the reference the 'why oh why' implies but sig worthy?


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The only thing about relying on the Chimera for protection is that it might go down first turn. Beefing and hiding may be just as effective, i'm not convinced on either yet.

because i found it funny is why.

i see your point about losing the chimera turn one. just my preference i guess. it gives you 2 heavy weapons, blocks line of sight and can transport. and does it all for a low price.

I'd have to agree that it is a very good thing for the CCS to have one. Even if it goes down, you still get cover off it.

I guess I'm going to conclude that beefing the unit (scaled for pts lvl) + chimera is the best way to ensure the CCS is durable enough to do it's job of Holding the IG Gunline FTW!

lotsa vet. squads w/ carapace armour and always have yarrick! he owns! played about 20 battles w/ him, haven't lost one!

I guess if you're taking an LC anyways and it's a big enough battle, or you're all about CC, you might as well go with Yarrick... but man he's expensive!