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Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Nasa's experiment last month to find water on the Moon was a major success, US scientists have announced.
The space agency smashed a rocket and a probe into a large crater at the lunar south pole, hoping to kick up ice.

Scientists who have studied the data now say instruments trained on the impact plume saw copious quantities of water-ice and water vapour.

One researcher described this as the equivalent of "a dozen two-gallon buckets" of water.

"We didn't just find a little bit; we found a significant amount," said Anthony Colaprete, chief scientist for the Lunar Crater Observation and Sensing Satellite (LCROSS) mission.

No doubt

October's experiment involved driving a 2,200kg Centaur rocket stage into the 100km-wide Cabeus Crater, a permanently shadowed depression at the Moon's far south.

At the time, scientists were hoping for a big plume of debris some 10km high which could be seen by Earth telescopes.

The actual debris cloud was much smaller, about 1.6km high, but sufficiently large to betray the evidence researchers were seeking.

The near-infrared spectrometer on the LCROSS probe that followed the rocket into the crater detected water-ice and water vapour. The ultraviolet-visible spectrometer provided additional confirmation by identifying the hydroxyl (OH) molecule, which arises when water is broken apart in sunlight.

"We were able to match the spectra from LCROSS data only when we inserted the spectra for water," Dr Colaprete said.

"No other reasonable combination of other compounds that we tried matched the observations. The possibility of contamination from the Centaur also was ruled out."

Useful resource

The total quantity of H2O spied by the instruments was more than 100kg. It came out of a 20m-30m wide hole dug up by the impacting Centaur rocket.

The LCROSS scientists stressed that the results presented on Friday were preliminary findings only, and further analysis could raise the final assessment of the amount of water in Cabeus.

Peter Schultz, from Brown University and a co-investigator on the LCROSS mission, said: "What's really exciting is we've only hit one spot. It's kind of like when you're drilling for oil. Once you find it in one place, there's a greater chance you'll find more nearby."

The regular surface of the Moon as seen from Earth is drier than any desert on our planet. But researchers have long speculated that some permanently shadowed places might harbour considerable stores of water, perhaps delivered by impacting comets billions of years ago.

If future investigations find the quantities to be particularly large, this water could become a useful resource for any astronauts who might base themselves at the lunar poles.

"It can be used for drinking water," said Mike Wargo, Nasa's chief lunar scientist for exploration systems.

"You can break it down and have breathable air for crews. But also, if you have significant quantities of this stuff, you have the constituents of one of the most potent rocket fuels - oxygen and hydrogen."

In September, data from three spacecraft, including India's Chandrayaan probe, showed that very fine films of H2O coat the particles that make up lunar soil.

Scientists behind that finding speculated that this water might migrate to the even cooler poles, much as water vapour on Earth will condense on a cold surface.

This cold sink effect could be supplementing any water delivered by comets, they said.

If cometary material did reside in places like Cabeus Crater it would be fascinating to examine it, commented Greg Delory, from the University of California, Berkeley.

"The surfaces in these permanently shadowed areas, such as the one LCROSS impacted, are very cold," he told reporters.

"That means that they tend to trap and keep things that encounter them - compounds, atoms and so forth. And so they act as record keepers over periods as long as several billion years. They have a story to tell about the history of the Moon and the Solar System."

LCROSS was launched by Nasa on 18 June as part of a double mission which included the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO).

The latter, which continues to circle the Moon, measured a temperature of minus 230 Celsius at the base of Cabeus Crater.
So, how long before China colonise the moon and annex it (because the US sure as hell won't be getting there first)?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8359744.stm

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/11/14 00:31:02


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Interesting...i really want live on the moon one day...and they should have a bus stop "moon-earth"...anyways



 
   
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Vancouver

Agreed


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Midwest Hell

Gwar! wrote:So, how long before China colonise the moon and annex it (because the US sure as hell won't be getting there first)?


I can see it now. Bases filled with MMO gold farmers and crater to crater warehouses with people making stuff for Walmart. :p



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Made in gb
Preacher of the Emperor






Manchester, UK

If there is significant water on the moon, it could well provide the resources for a hydrogen fuel-cell based spacecraft.

More likely, knowing the people in charge of our lives though, it'll be used for a bomb :(

1500pts

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Minnesota

We have water on Earth. We can build rockets and bombs here.

There's no reason to be on the moon, it's a giant rock. Tourism for the stupidly rich is the only thing I can think of.

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
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Orkeosaurus wrote:We have water on Earth. We can build rockets and bombs here.

There's no reason to be on the moon, it's a giant rock. Tourism for the stupidly rich is the only thing I can think of.
Building spess sheeps on the moon means they can build proper Space Ships, not those tiny things they have to use now.

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Minnesota

Why not build them in orbit?

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
Made in gb
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Orkeosaurus wrote:Why not build them in orbit?
Because Even in orbit there is minimal drag and will need orbit corrections.

Also Earth has about 9 bajillion bits of space crap that will FUBAR any sort of large construction.
Also by Space Ships I mean BFG sized multi Kilometer sized ships

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Minnesota

Well, those would be a huge waste of money no matter where we build them. Mars is the only halfway interesting place in this god forsaken solar system, and you don't need capital ships to get to Mars.

We should build some super-submarines instead. Why aren't I in charge of everything!

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
Made in gb
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Orkeosaurus wrote:Well, those would be a huge waste of money no matter where we build them. Mars is the only halfway interesting place in this god forsaken solar system, and you don't need capital ships to get to Mars.
Actually, there is loads of interesting places. Mars is one, but The Asteroid Belt could yeild huge amounts of resources. Europa is almost certain to have Liquid Water on it. Titan is essentially proto-Earth. Jupiter and Saturn have near unlimited amounts of Hydrogen that could one day be used for Fusion.
We should build some super-submarines instead. Why aren't I in charge of everything!
Because then we would have super submarines

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Minnesota

Gwar! wrote:Actually, there is loads of interesting places. Mars is one, but The Asteroid Belt could yeild huge amounts of resources.
Like what, the world's most expensive iron?
Europa is almost certain to have Liquid Water on it.
It's a possibility, but it's also far away as hell. I suppose I'll lament on this one; if there's nothing interesting on Mars we should probably check out Europa (but that doesn't require a moonbase!).
Titan is essentially proto-Earth.
Except for it's temperature, which was one of the few things about early Earth that didn't totally suck!
Jupiter and Saturn have near unlimited amounts of Hydrogen that could one day be used for Fusion.
We can get enough from sea water, if we even ever learn how 2 fusion.
Because then we would have super submarines
Super-submarines would allow us to find crazy looking fish. Instead we're going to explore rock-covered rock. That might actually be icy rock! Oh wow!

And the thing is, we're still going to need super-submarines to explore Europa, if we ever go there. But it doesn't make any sense to keep looking around Eurpoa when we haven't even explored all the places on Earth there could be life. We wouldn't even know non-photosynthetic ecosystems existed without super-submarines. We could be sitting above a race of intelligent cephalopods right now and never know it.

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
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Orkeosaurus wrote:We could be sitting above a race of intelligent cephalopods right now and never know it.
Dude, Octopussies are well smart!

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Minnesota

Yeah, but I mean really smart ones.

Like, right now, they're arguing whether they should try and build some stupid base in the center of the Earth, or invest in some super-supermarines.

But it doesn't make any sense to keep looking around the center of the Earth when we haven't even explored all the places on the surface of the Earth there could be life. We wouldn't even know photosynthetic ecosystems existed without super-supermarines. We could be sitting below a race of intelligent primates right now and never know it.

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
Made in gb
Plastictrees



UK

Just looked up fusion and it looks good, if we find a CHEAP way to do it

Orkeo, In all seriouness Im realy interested in giant squids and collusal squids.

There achualy realy interesting.

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Minnesota

I like Giant Squids. Colossal Squids are kind of lame though, they're like Giant Squid's fat cousins.

I've heard it hypothesized that there could be giant octopi at the bottom of the sea. This was a while ago though, so it could have been that the theory was largely based on early evidence of Colossal Squid. Or just unfounded.

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
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Plastictrees



UK

There are giant Octopi too.

They got shots off a giant squid (alive) for the first time in 2006. There on the net, the thing is like 14m long!

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Minnesota

Well, I mean really giant octopi.

Not those medium-sized octopi they call giant these days.

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
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Plastictrees



UK

Why would a Octopi become giant giant though.

No need to be bigger then 14m, is there?

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Like the Jules Vernes "20,000 leagues under the sea" squid.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/11/14 02:43:35


--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
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Minnesota

I dunno, but it happens a lot in the deep ocean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look at this crazy mother fether!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/11/14 02:49:16


Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

Didn't the Indian Space Agency find water on the moon months ago. Talk about slow news day.

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About to eat your Avatar...

What was that Orkeo? 8-ball fish from the 30th century?

Don't mind if I do...



What is so amazing about space anyway? The most interesting conversation I have ever had about space, just talked about the possibility for life... erm... .

GET EM' FLUFFY!!!


 
   
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Wrexasaur wrote:GET EM' FLUFFY!!!
Aren't my baby Pictures cute!

Here is one of Frazzled at the last office party!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/11/14 03:16:45


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Orkeosaurus wrote:I dunno, but it happens a lot in the deep ocean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look at this crazy mother fether!



Ahh he looks so cute lying there with his paws all innocent and all. The antennas too.

GG
   
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(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

This is a cool discovery, but the idea of a moon base is pretty well defeated by the notion of a space station (actual zergo g, constant power supply, easier to reach, easier to return from), meaning that the only real purpose of this would be to ease the creation of a research station of some kind. You can launch space ships from the moon, but first you have to get them there. You're not going to be building them there after all, you don't have any of the resources and none of the manpower. But then, if you're launching a space ship at the moon just to launch it from there, why not just launch it from the earth?

Didn't the Indian Space Agency find water on the moon months ago. Talk about slow news day.


No they shot multi spectrum images of dark craters while flying by them incidentally, and those images hinted at the existence of thin films of water, but couldn't actually determine how much or proof the discovery. This mission determined the actual amount and made sure there were no errors.

----------------

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About to eat your Avatar...

generalgrog wrote:Ahh he looks so cute lying there with his paws all innocent and all. The antennas too.

GG


Awww... OMFGWTFBBQ!!1!


 
   
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ShumaGorath wrote:This is a cool discovery, but the idea of a moon base is pretty well defeated by the notion of a space station (actual zergo g, constant power supply, easier to reach, easier to return from), meaning that the only real purpose of this would be to ease the creation of a research station of some kind. You can launch space ships from the moon, but first you have to get them there. You're not going to be building them there after all, you don't have any of the resources and none of the manpower. But then, if you're launching a space ship at the moon just to launch it from there, why not just launch it from the earth?
I can answer that one.

Launching stuff from Earth is hard. Really hard. It has to be a very specific shape (because of the damn air) and size (Because of the damn Gravity) and it's just a pain in the arse.
What you do is send up rockets with the Materials needed (Iron Bars, Aluminium, Electronics etc etc etc) and assemble them on the moon into whatever shape you want (aka Big mofo Spess Sheeps) which then require little fuel to take off and do not have to worry about atmosphere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wrexasaur wrote:
generalgrog wrote:Ahh he looks so cute lying there with his paws all innocent and all. The antennas too.

GG


Awww... OMFGWTFBBQ!!1!
Why does it have a vagina!!!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/11/14 03:32:18


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Minnesota

Well, mass is mass, and you need to get it off of the Earth one way or the other. Maybe you could create hydrogen and oxygen on the moon, but I don't think that's worth going all the way to the moon to get.

Building Giant Spess Sheeps is going to cost a heel of a lot of dollres, and building a city on the moon even more so. Maybe if we find aliens on Mars and need to ship their spice over here or something we should build a port on the moon, but just don't have a good reason to now.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/11/14 03:39:37


Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Launching stuff from Earth is hard. Really hard. It has to be a very specific shape (because of the damn air) and size (Because of the damn Gravity) and it's just a pain in the arse.
What you do is send up rockets with the Materials needed (Iron Bars, Aluminium, Electronics etc etc etc) and assemble them on the moon into whatever shape you want (aka Big mofo Spess Sheeps) which then require little fuel to take off and do not have to worry about atmosphere.


Or you could just do it in space where you don't have the engineering concerns of gravity. Even then though, thats not the issue. You don't have the refining capacity, ability to construct electronics (Over a hundred metals are in a home computer, guess what happens when one goes bad?), the ability to refine the fuels (guess how many chemicals you need to refine the chemicals that go into rocket fuel? Guess how much it weighs?), and then what do you gain? No atmosphere and less gravity. What did it cost you? You only had to take dozens of space flights to carry more weight than the space craft would actually weigh (Thats a negative, and thats only for a very small space craft) only so you could bring the raw materials to the moon. Then you have to take dozens more to bring in the equipment to construct the ship (more wastes of time, fuel, money, and material) to the moon. Then hundreds, perhaps thousands, more so you could build the facilities to make it with. Then hundreds more so you could bring the tens of thousands of workers it actually requires to build it to the moon.


Or you could do what we do now. Build it on earth, attach giant boosters too it, and get it to space. Honestly, moon bases are a net negative for essentially everything. The moon is cool, but we spent all that time escaping the earths gravity to put things in space, why would we just send it to the moon so we could launch it again? The only logical solution for something of that kind of an ISS style facility. Launch the pre fabricated components into space, assemble them in orbit, launch from there. Launching from the moon will require boosters just the same as it did from earth. Launching from space only requires some Ionic engines and the essentials for space living and science.

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