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Hey, I'm thinking of doing a true-scale Raven Guard army and i wanted some input on my list before i go out and buy all of those terminator legs!!

The idea behind the list is to be an army in keeping with the Raven Guards combat doctrines (ie. scouting, jump packs, pods, guerilla warfare) but i also want the list to be quite competitive. My regular opponent plays orks, but the local meta-game is quite a few MEQs, Orks, Nids and Tau. Any thoughts on how to make this list more competitive but also fluffy would be greatly appreciated. So, without further ado, the 1500pts list:

5th Company Captain Corvane Valar = 195
'Counts as' Shrike

Valar's Wing, 10 Assault Marines = 240
Sergeant w/ thunder hammer, 2 flamers

Ironclad = 205
Heavy flamer, ironclad launchers, Dreadnought DP

Dreadnought = 155
MM, Dreadnought DP

Tactical Squad = 235
Sergeant w/ fist, meltagun, missile launcher, DP

Tactical Squad = 220
Sergeant w/ power weapon, flamer, missile launcher, DP

Scout Squad = 75

Land Speeder Squadron = 180
2 Typhoons

TOTAL = 1500

The Dreadnought Drop Pods cost 50pts, have no weapons but have the Assault Vehicle rule (FWs IA:2 update)

The idea behind the list is that Shrike and the Assault Marines infiltrate with the scout bikers, getting into good positions. The Scout Bikes turbo-boost into a good position for 1 of the DPs using the Scouts rule. When turn 1 comes Shrike and the Assault Marines Jump Pack to a juicy target, fleet then assault. The 2 tac combat squads with MLs take out any transports. DP comes in, the ironclad with ironclad launchers gets out, meltas a transport/ flames a squad then assaults either the squad that has been flamed or the transports occupants (they can do this using FWs Dreadnought Drop Pod rules [assault vehicle] but the Dread DP has no weapons and costs 15 pts more). Also, all models have fleet due to Shrike so that adds some flexibility for the tac marines.


What do you think? Has this list got any chance of being competitive?

Vitruvian


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Any thoughts anyone?

Gah! Need some input!!

I do appreciate your attempt to be fluffy, but i also have to throw in that the Raven Guard isnt made purely of scouts.

So looking at your choices, would change:

- more bodies. scouts seem cheap but as squads of 5 wont do enough damage to count. Object sitting small squads of snipers/Ml do fine. But fleet doesnt benefit them much.
- maybe 2 ironclads are enough. I doubt a dread can fleet, no combat tactics = nothing to trade for.
- vanguard are your shrikes wing replacement, right? Theyre expensive and need much practice to serve you well.
Standard assaultmarines should do better, since your vanguards die as easy as any other marine.
-scoutbikes may also not fleet. Bikes have their own "turboboost" instead of such USR's.

I may suggest:
-a unit to claim objectives.
-some reliable anti-tank.
-something to bolster the numbers.

-> maybe replace one ironclad with 2 LS typhoon ( mm ) for long range support?
-> maybe 2 squads of 10 ASM instead of the vanguard and a scout squad ? more bodies and both may use fleet....

Thanks for the comments. The main reason i chose scouts was so i didn't have to build loads of true-scale marines! However, i have got the technique now so i will put in tac marines.

You are totally correct that bikes and dreads can't fleet, I forgot dreads don't get combat tactics and that fleet is just running with assault allowed in 5th ed. I looked for rules saying bikes can't fleet and didn't find it but it says in the BGB "bikes cannot run in the shooting phase" therefore they also can't fleet.

I have a tendency to go for uber-squads that die really quickly so I'll take your advice and switch the vanguard for assault marines. I just liked the idea of lots of claws tbh and have fond memories of Shrike's wing from the previous codex!

Will edit list now!


**EDIT LIST AT TOP EDIT**

I was wondering whether i should change the Assault Marine Sergeant's weapons to a PF and meltabombs, or a power sword and meltabombs, giving me 10 pts to use elsewhere. I think the twin claws on the sergeant are unnecessary with Shrike and im not too confident on Shrikes ability to rend vehicles.

What do you think?

Yeah, I wouldn't bank on shrike being a solid anti tank, though he would do in a pinch. Hard to do better than melta bombs for that, though you might be in trouble if you are relying on assault marines for your main anti tank role.

Vitruvian XVII wrote:I was wondering whether i should change the Assault Marine Sergeant's weapons to a PF and meltabombs, or a power sword and meltabombs, giving me 10 pts to use elsewhere. I think the twin claws on the sergeant are unnecessary with Shrike and im not too confident on Shrikes ability to rend vehicles.

What do you think?

Power weapons and meltabombs are a common combo. A thunderhammer would be another fine choice.
PF or TH may not need the meltabomb as backup.
Yes, Shrike isn't equipped to care for vehicles, so a sarge with some anti-armor would fit.
IMO either spent the points on a TH or a powerweapon/meltabomb.

@Tortoiseer: The main anti-tank are the ML combat squads and the typhoons, the anti-tank in the assault marines is in case Shrike and his squad need to take down a vehicle, i'd rather not rely on shrike's rending to hurt a tank that needs to die.

@1hadhq: TH seems like the best idea to me as its anti-tank and MC killer and can instant-death most characters.

Cheers for the feedback,

Vitruvian



**EDIT FINAL LIST AT TOP EDIT**

Well, you aren’t really using army wide fleet too much…what? Only the Asault marines are using it to consistent effect.
Shrike: meh.
Assault marines: no flamers?

Ironclads look ok. I’m iffy about AI2, don’t forget to let your opponent know you are using them and what they do…cause not everyone uses/plays forge world stuff.

Scout bikers: really small squad… are you that paranoid about Drop pods landing out of place, sheesh, they are good already, no need to tack on 95 points and an extra whimpy Kill Point.

Tactials look, meh, where are the transports?
Speeders are meh.

Beware of TFG with the RAW Nazi Hat on with Shrike and infiltrate. Just don’t bother to play those people and you are all set.

What is your plan when you don’t get Turn 1?
What is your plan when you lose Turn 1 to a seize?
What is your plan if it’s an all pod force?
What is your plan if it’s Dawn of War?
What is your plan if it’s a full reserve list (mech/skimmer mech)?

Those are some of the reasons why I don’t like using infiltrators.
Because Ass marines are not flexible in what they do, it makes infiltrate not a flexible ability for them.

Sanctjud wrote:
Beware of TFG with the RAW Nazi Hat on with Shrike and infiltrate. Just don’t bother to play those people and you are all set.

Lots of good points in there, but ESPECIALLY this one!

Sanctjud wrote:Well, you aren’t really using army wide fleet too much…what? Only the Asault marines are using it to consistent effect.
Shrike: meh.
Assault marines: no flamers?

Ironclads look ok. I’m iffy about AI2, don’t forget to let your opponent know you are using them and what they do…cause not everyone uses/plays forge world stuff.

Scout bikers: really small squad… are you that paranoid about Drop pods landing out of place, sheesh, they are good already, no need to tack on 95 points and an extra whimpy Kill Point.

Tactials look, meh, where are the transports?
Speeders are meh.

Beware of TFG with the RAW Nazi Hat on with Shrike and infiltrate. Just don’t bother to play those people and you are all set.

What is your plan when you don’t get Turn 1?
What is your plan when you lose Turn 1 to a seize?
What is your plan if it’s an all pod force?
What is your plan if it’s Dawn of War?
What is your plan if it’s a full reserve list (mech/skimmer mech)?

Those are some of the reasons why I don’t like using infiltrators.
Because Ass marines are not flexible in what they do, it makes infiltrate not a flexible ability for them.

First point, all the gamers in my area couldn't give a s**t whether I use IA or not, they're really cool and don't care about RAW, as long as it seems fair thats ok for them!! Well, apart from one feth-head whose an absolute p***s, mainly 'cos he uses 3rd ed main rules and im sure he hasnt even read the current BT codex, we always argue and he thinks he's always right so i don't bother with him any more!

Fair comment on the Scout Bikes, i'm used to playing daemons so a bit paranoid about DS going wrong I'll lose the Scout Bikes then!

Speeders are for reliable anti-tank. Bit wary about transports for the tac marines beacuse i don't know if i can true-scale them well. Pods are a possibility though.

Flamers for the Ass marines were dropped because of lack of pts but they can go back in now.

+ If i don't get turn 1, i wait it out with shrike and ass marines and hope the cover they have infiltrated into keeps them safe from shooting and that they don't get charged by any I5 guys!!

+ Same as above for sieze the initiative.

+ No all pods round my way.

+ Dawn of war would help me as i could get the Ass marines into combat in the dark and advance my forces unhindered under cover of Night fighting.

+ No one uses all reserves.


I take your points if it was a tourney but local meta means no all reserves/ all pods. This is just a competitive list for my club's league based on the local meta-game.

Thanks for the comments though! Any suggestions about the list now?


**LIST EDITED**

Dont have any tactical advice better than that above

But agree with the fluffy approach and think you will enjoy Shrike

Well, lucky for you and your gaming group.
Oh yea you sound either really excited or annoyed that I wasn't pychic and could find you and know your gaming group...no need to pull out the 's**t" and the "p***s'.

If you don't tell us, how are we to know?
_________________

Tactics:
So... how do you know he will seize it?
How will you deploy, it seems you want a firts turn charge so you hover around the 19-21" range, which is still close enough for mass small arms and is generally unsupported.

Yes the dreads come down, but application of fire is easy as the Ass marines and dreads are drastically different targets.

Dawn of war:
It means they can only outflank or just move onto the board, which means no infiltrating.

In addition, this plays into a fast list, able to continue to bide their time.

No one uses all reserves.

Well…can’t fault me for not knowing your gaming group…in addition…no one? Really…I’m now interested in what sort of gaming group you have…
Sounds more casual (where there is nothing wrong with that), but these tacticas/army lists is (as I see it) not just for you.

In addition, I comment on all-comer lists, hence my mentioning all these scenarios…who knows….some one might pull this on you, at least you have some thoughts in how you react to it beforehand.

…but local meta means no all reserves…

Do you mean no one does it, or it’s not allowed?
If you do mean no one does it, kk, now I know.

Sorry Sanctjud, I know that post came over as really angry which was not how i intended it at all! I really appreciate your comments, I feel like they're really helping this list develop.

Sorry again about not describing the local tendencies and what my gaming groups like, i probably should've done that in the first post Thing is, this is my 1st army list thread so i don't really know what i'm doing!!

You are correct in your assumption that my group is more casual, half of the people are less than 15 and the other half are people that have played since 2nd ed or before and have got a whole bunch of jumbled up rules going on. I'm not even sure that anyone knows you can leave your whole force in reserve, i have done with my daemons but i ought to do it occasionally with my regular army. We do have a veterans night where i'd be interested in creating a more competitive air to games but at the moment we've been playing a Blood Bowl league at every opportunity, which is kinda boring me know but hey!!

Main reason i've put up this list is that i want a solid competitive list for me to work with before i go all out and create a true-scale marine army. I also want to get more involved with local tourneys and maybe some bigger ones later, but we'll see. So this is an exercise for me in creating a competitive gaming list, whcich i've never done before.



In Dawn of War you are actually allowed to infiltrate as long as you still only have 1 HQ 2 Troops max. But i assume you're talking about the Ass Marines so i see your point there.


Give me the day to think about it and then i'll put up a new list, but i've got to go to college now!

No problem, funny thing is, I’m not a stranger to angry responses

Well, with daemons you don’t have a choice to leave them in reserves.
I’m sure as you guys play more, new things will start popping up. People will try new things, etc. May be soon or later, but the more you know the better.

In general, the list looks ok for what you want to do with it, as a first list.
Others have suggested things to polish it up a bit.
And I do think it only needs some polish and not a complete rework. I was more suggesting ways to use it and work with what you have.

Coming up with plans when situations x,y,z show up. Stuff like that.

Okay, i think the polish comes in the form of DPs for the tac squads. I think i like the cut of this list, so unless i get some reall killer suggestions the list as of now, stands.

Thanks for all the help guys.

Vitruvian