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I hear many people say that fire warriors are pretty much junk units. I havnt played as the Tau so obviously I dont have that under my belt of reason. But looking at them in the codex, they seem like they have the potential to be pretty damn good. Whats the deal here? Are they really junk? Or is it one of those "oh well some people say they suck, so they suck" kind of things?
Id really like to know this one

They are an overpriced unit that is useless without markerlights and a Devilfish.

They suck. They get outshot by Orks, outfought by Guardsmen and outmanuevered by Eldar.

Outshot by...ok , they cant take on meat bags alllriiiiight.... and uh wait doesnt Eldar out maneuver everyone?

Im sorry but I am failing to see how boyz can outshoot firewarriors. The FW have better BS and can shoot almost twice the distance. And isnt the whole point of a Tau force to use marker lights like crazy?

I dont really think they're bad units, imho they do their job quite well. I havent played a ton of games but ive seen my share hanging around the hobby shop and shooting the wind. As far as im concerned tau is about the long range high tech stuff and if you give your fire warriors some distance they can take down most units.

Firewarriors aren't garbage, they're just old, and haven't gotten a new codex since all the basic Troops started getting cheaper and cheaper, and thus are more expensive in the modern codex age.

Aduro wrote:Firewarriors aren't garbage, they're just old, and haven't gotten a new codex since all the basic Troops started getting cheaper and cheaper, and thus are more expensive in the modern codex age.

QFT

Indeed. 12pts is cutting it for what they do. Hopefuly when games workshop look at the tau codex they will take what doesn't work now these days and fix them up.... I mean... it worked for chaos space marines.... right?..... guys? *Quickly runs out of the room, arms flailing*

They're pretty expensive for what they do. I wouldn't mind some kind of special rule where they can do a fire shot before they get assaulted, or a reduction in pts. Range is great and is fair trade off for poor WS, but pts worth is crazy go nuts expensive...

I'd imagine they'd go down to 8 pts each if they were redone today.

Aduro wrote:I'd imagine they'd go down to 8 pts each if they were redone today.

it really is all about the cost. It costs 90 points in firewarriors to bring down a single marine at that much vaunted 30" range.

Compare if you will the Sister of Battle and the FCW

Sister of battle has better WS, BS, I, LD, and Sv along with faith points, the ability to take lots of flamer/meltas, cheap transports, and vets with hidden fists for 1 point more. They lose out on 6" of range, and 1+ strength.

Or for 6 points more, you have the Space Marine with twice the WS, 1 more BS, 1 more point of str, toughness, 2 more of initiative, 2 more leadership, the ability to take tons of weapons and cheap transports, the abilitty to always regroup, and the option to take heavy weapons. And power armor.

Ok so its mainly because they are pricey. Ifigured as much. The same with the transport they get, 80pts? Dear god thats expensive, specially when Orks get a trukk for 35, thats 2 trukks per, uh whatever the hell theirs is called lol.
Thanks everyone
And that rule for being able to fire off one more time before being assaulted in all honesty, would be the SHIZZ! That totally fits their fluff as well

Troops:

Fire Warriors 10 pts per model, unit size 1 leader-type-guy and 5-11 grunts

WS2 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I2 A1 LD7 SV4+ Leader-type-guy is LD8, and has some special-issue weapons options.

Wargear:

Pulse Rifle, EMP grenades, photon grenades
May take a Devilfish as a dedicated transport.

Special Rules:

For the Greater Good!
When an opponent declares an assault against the Fire Warrior unit, the Fire Warriors may make a LD test. If successful, and if the assaulting unit would be able to reach close combat with the Fire Warrior unit, each fire warrior may take one pulse rifle shot at the assaulting unit before assault or reaction moves are made.

If the shots cause 25% casualties, the assaulting unit will make a morale check, if the unit is not fearless or otherwise immune to morale checks. If they fail their morale check, the assault fails, and the unit falls back. If the shots cause the assaulting unit to be outside of assault range due to casualties, the assault fails

If they choose to do this, all subsequent close combat attacks automatically hit the Fire Warriors, as they have not properly prepared to defend themselves from their opponents' melee attacks. Any casualties from the pulse rifle shots used in this manner count towards combat resolution, should the Fire Warriors miraculously survive their attempt at martyrdom.

That sounds like a pretty cool special rule. Starting to make me drool!

I don't think that fire warriors should be cheaper, I think that they should simply be more capable.

My problem with the FW has always been their fluff. If you read the codex they are hailed as being great against gaurdsmen but were defeated once they encountered the Space Marines. Now look at their stats especially Ld, weapons and points and you'll notice that couldn't be more opposite of the truth, they specialize in killing SM's, CSM's and to some extent the Necrons at a range but fall apart against any army that can absorb their relativley limited rate of fire. Also without specialized equipment AND support from vehicles their ability to kill armor head-on is horribly limited leaving them to this one roll of fighting heavy infantry that might be on the battle-field against certain opponents.

Overall I think that reducing the points of the Tau fire warriors will only encourage the current players to field more armor and\or battle suits instead of encouraging the players to put more value into these troops. The points would be find if they had a Krak missle launcher or something like that avalible, and if there were not far better alternative uses for the points.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:Overall I think that reducing the points of the Tau fire warriors will only encourage the current players to field more armor and\or battle suits instead of encouraging the players to put more value into these troops. The points would be find if they had a Krak missle launcher or something like that avalible, and if there were not far better alternative uses for the points.

While I don't necessarily think that Fire Warriors need to be clones of imperial troops with a heavy and special weapon in the squad, I totally agree with your point that Fire Warriors don't need to be cheaper, they need to be more worth taking.

Maybe I'm just being too overpowered, but make the pulse rifles assault weapons. I'd pay for that. and not just for assaulting, cause that would be suicide, but to run and gun at 30" with a Str. 5 weapon. That would help tau players out, and fit with their fluff about being mobile

Ok, I am going to go against the grain here and say I like the firewarriors. I always do well with my FW heavy army, I can think of very few times where I have lost with them and when I have its never been because of shortcoming of the FWs. I think the level of firepower they can dish out for 10 points is nothing to scoff at. I take 2 networked marker lights in all my squads. 4 In my honour guard squad (2 for the leader and 2 for the ethereal). It gets quite pricey but I will focus fire my army on something I want dead, and bring a hail of cover negating BS 5 S 5 shots at it. Bottom line is I have never felt that FW are an uncompetitive troop choice

KingCracker wrote:Outshot by...ok , they cant take on meat bags alllriiiiight.... and uh wait doesnt Eldar out maneuver everyone?

Im sorry but I am failing to see how boyz can outshoot firewarriors. The FW have better BS and can shoot almost twice the distance. And isnt the whole point of a Tau force to use marker lights like crazy?

Against T4 targets:

20 Shoota boyz shoot 40 shots, get 13.3333 hits, causing 6.6667 wounds.

12 Fire Warriors shoot 12 shots, get six hits, causing four wounds. Eight wounds on Rapid fire range.

So on average they're about the same. Fire Warriors have higher Str gun which is useful against some targets, and longer maximum range. On the other hand, Boyz shoot twice to 18", FW's only to 12". So Fire Warriors have to stay static to maximize their firepower, Orks can move freely. And here's the biggest kicker - Boyz can shoot & assault and are pretty good at the latter. FW's can't (unless armed with Carbines which is generally thought to be bad idea) and suck at assault anyway.

Fire Warriors are "paper" unit. They look good on paper at first glance, with their 4+ save and powerful basic guns. Unfortunately, on actual gaming table their limitations manifest and their strength are neutered. With 4+ cover saves easy to get, their shooting is usually pretty ineffective. Lots of potential opponents have Fleet or are otherwise fast and simply assault over the Rapid fire range and are barely harmed by Pulse fire.

Biggest problem is IMHO that they are so limited. There are many threats they are simply helpless against. They can't take care on themselves, they have to be constantly babysitted by your tanks and Crisis teams.

Biggest problem is IMHO that they are so limited. There are many threats they are simply helpless against. They can't take care on themselves, they have to be constantly babysitted by your tanks and Crisis teams.

Another Plug for the FW, markerlights in the squad let you call in seeker missiles should a tank be barreling down on them. But I agree they are entirely dependent on other parts of your army.

Volkov wrote:
Another Plug for the FW, markerlights in the squad let you call in seeker missiles should a tank be barreling down on them. But I agree they are entirely dependent on other parts of your army.

Sure you can, but you'll effectively pay 20 points from BS2.5 single-shot weapon...

willydstyle wrote:
If they choose to do this, all subsequent close combat attacks automatically hit the Fire Warriors, as they have not properly prepared to defend themselves from their opponents' melee attacks. Any casualties from the pulse rifle shots used in this manner count towards combat resolution, should the Fire Warriors miraculously survive their attempt at martyrdom.

This is the only thing I would change. I would make it so the opponent could reroll misses, as that would still penalize the Tau player for standing still while not automatically forking over a killpoint.

For rules made by a forumgoer, these are actually pretty solid.

Anything better than an Eldar guardian automatically hits FWs anyway.

How about the FW use their guns to stand and shoot, as described, instead of fighting, similar to the old ork bikers on the charge?

I wouldn't want to give FW teams a heavy weapon cause that goes against the Tau doctrine and fluff. That, and as stated before, I don't want the Tau to become an "alien" IG.

I like that stand and shoot rule.

But to play devil's advocate, the FW SHOULD depend on other units. That's how their army is supposed to be played. All the units intermesh and support each other, Crisis Suits act as the FW Heavy Weapons, etc. I think that's what GW wanted in the first place.

Unlike SM squads which pretty much act as independent units, leaving a FW squad alone will get them killed. My gripe is that even when you're doing everything right and meshing your army together, the FW seems like the weak link in the chain. I've gone from lovin my FW's and trying to take a lot, to taking the 6-man in a Devilfish tactic.

Sad.

Brother SRM wrote:

willydstyle wrote:
If they choose to do this, all subsequent close combat attacks automatically hit the Fire Warriors, as they have not properly prepared to defend themselves from their opponents' melee attacks. Any casualties from the pulse rifle shots used in this manner count towards combat resolution, should the Fire Warriors miraculously survive their attempt at martyrdom.

This is the only thing I would change. I would make it so the opponent could reroll misses, as that would still penalize the Tau player for standing still while not automatically forking over a killpoint.

For rules made by a forumgoer, these are actually pretty solid.

The thing is, it's actually a bonus to the tau player if the unit gets wiped, as then the assaulting unit, after having potentially been weakened by the Tau's pulse fire, will then be in the open to get shot again.

And thanks, I think I could do a good job writing rules for GW.

Ok, I can see where my preferance for the Guard docturine has worked its way into my post but I would still like to see more flexability in the Fire Warriors. How about a mulit-meltaish weapon (Some assault weapon with a short range, S: 5 vs. flesh but a bonus vs. armored targets)? I think something like this would fit the hunter prey fluff because tanks and walkers are high value targets that you would have to lure in close for the kill.

Volkov brings up a point though, the Tau are supposed to be the army that acts as one organism relying on spotters and networked heavy-hitting firepower over numbers or individual ability. They do take the game in another direction. It's hard to disagree with that.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:Ok, I can see where my preferance for the Guard docturine has worked its way into my post but I would still like to see more flexability in the Fire Warriors. How about a mulit-meltaish weapon (Some assault weapon with a short range, S: 5 vs. flesh but a bonus vs. armored targets)? I think something like this would fit the hunter prey fluff because tanks and walkers are high value targets that you would have to lure in close for the kill.

Volkov brings up a point though, the Tau are supposed to be the army that acts as one organism relying on spotters and networked heavy-hitting firepower over numbers or individual ability. They do take the game in another direction. It's hard to disagree with that.

If you just gave fire warriors EMP grenades as standard (as I suggested above) it would give them anti-vehicle utility.

I also think that Dire Avengers and Guardians should have Haywire grenades.

Volkov wrote:

Biggest problem is IMHO that they are so limited. There are many threats they are simply helpless against. They can't take care on themselves, they have to be constantly babysitted by your tanks and Crisis teams.

Another Plug for the FW, markerlights in the squad let you call in seeker missiles should a tank be barreling down on them. But I agree they are entirely dependent on other parts of your army.

How do you take your networked markerlights?

I'm assuming it's upgrade an FW to Shas'ui, give him a drone controller and a pair of Marker drones. (A positive side effect is to raise squad Leadership to 8.)

If this is correct, it makes a unit quite expensive and reduces mobility because you can't mount in a Devilfish unless you reduce your FWs to 10 per squad.

Since Markerlights are heavy weapons you can't move the squad and fire. That's not so much of a problem with range 30 weapons, though it does imply a static kind of tactics.

What do you use to capture points?

Kilkrazy wrote:

Volkov wrote:

Biggest problem is IMHO that they are so limited. There are many threats they are simply helpless against. They can't take care on themselves, they have to be constantly babysitted by your tanks and Crisis teams.

Another Plug for the FW, markerlights in the squad let you call in seeker missiles should a tank be barreling down on them. But I agree they are entirely dependent on other parts of your army.

How do you take your networked markerlights?

I'm assuming it's upgrade an FW to Shas'ui, give him a drone controller and a pair of Marker drones. (A positive side effect is to raise squad Leadership to 8.)

If this is correct, it makes a unit quite expensive and reduces mobility because you can't mount in a Devilfish unless you reduce your FWs to 10 per squad.

Since Markerlights are heavy weapons you can't move the squad and fire. That's not so much of a problem with range 30 weapons, though it does imply a static kind of tactics.

What do you use to capture points?

No. you don't need a networked marker light to fire a seeker missles so you upgrade to Shas'ui and give him a marker light. TL if you don't want the rest of your squad to fire on the tank...but this starts to get expensive.