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So I'm slowlybuilding up an Empire force, and am trying to settle on a list before I start going gung-ho on buying stuff.

Basically, I'm trying to theme it off of The Band of the Hawk from the comic series Berserk.

It's pretty character driven, so most of the "theming" will be in the characters section, but for the most part it also purposefully eschews the more fanciful selections in the book (Helblaster and Helstorm guns as well as the Steam Tank) in favor of more troops and cavalry. Anyways, input would be much appreciated.


LORDS
Templar Grand Master - "Griffith" - 230
Lance & Shield, Dawn Armor, Shroud of Magnus, Barded Warhorse

HEROES
Captain - "Gutz" - 114
Barded Warhorse, Full Plate, Shield, Sword of Might, Icon of Magnus

Warrior Priest - "Pippin" - 129
Barded Warhorse, Heavy Armor, Shield, Great Hammer, Sigil of Sigmar

Battle Wizard - "Rickert" - 115
2x DS


CORE
30x Swordsmen - 175
Full command
Detachment: 9x Free Company - 45

30x Swordsmen - 175
Full command
Detachment: 9x Free Company - 45

10x Handgunners - 110
Muso, Marksman - HLR

5x Knights - 155
Lance & Shield, Full Command

6x Knights - 178
Lance & Shield, Full Command

SPECIAL
5x Knights of the Inner Circle - 195
Lance & Shield, Full Command, Warbanner

6x Pistoliers - 132
Muso, Outrider - Repeater Pistol

2x Great Cannons - 200


Too many toys? Not enough toys? By my count, it's 3PD and 4DD w/ 2 scrolls and 2 units benefiting from MR, so potentially ok against magic? C&C much welcomed.

Edit- testing

Okay, being not that familiar with Berserk, I'm going to miss a lot of your theme, but here are some quick comments.

Templar Grand Master - "Griffith" - 230
Lance & Shield, Dawn Armor, Shroud of Magnus, Barded Warhorse

Okay, the TGM is nice, and his Immune to Psych is a pretty big plus, but... he's still just human. The Dawn Armor is pricey for what it does, though you have maxed out what it can do. I would, instead, just save some points and give him Full Plate. I'd also get him some Laurels of Victory as well. It'll double the CR he causes, which'll make him huge on the charge. 4 attacks at strength 6 should net you at least 2 wounds, which the Laurels would double to 4. 4 CR from one human is pretty solid.

Warrior Priest - "Pippin" - 129
Barded Warhorse, Heavy Armor, Shield, Great Hammer, Sigil of Sigmar

Remember, zweihanders on horseback aren't as impressive. After the initial charge, it only gives +1 to Str, and you swing last. Also, the Sigil of Sigmar is not terribly impressive. I'd just drop it as a whole, and save some points.

Battle Wizard - "Rickert" - 115
2x DS

Since you can put mounted characters in a foot unit, I'd suggest getting the old wizard a barded warhorse. it'll give him a spot of mobility, if he needs it, and give him a mundane armor save against light attacks, and small arms fire.

10x Handgunners - Muso, Marksman -

1 HLR is not going to accomplish terribly much. Math-hammer wise, you need 4 HLR to really start to get them to work like they're suppossed to. Especially with only one unit of Handgunners, your opponent will kinda know where the sniper fire is coming from. I'd save some points and drop the HLR for a brace of pistols. The Pistols actually do more. You'll lower your long-range threat, but greatly increase your mid-range to close-range threat. Plus, your Champion will have Multi-Shot x2, and always be able to counter-fire against charging enemies. Plus, because you wait till everyone is in range when doing a stand-and-shoot, your handguns will at least be firing at short range as they wait for your Pistol-Champ to draw his pistols.

Overall, the rest of your army is kinda normal. You are weak on magical defense. Most spell-heavy armies can easily generate 15+ power dice a turn, without batting an eyelash. If you can afford to, you might want to swap Gutz into a Warrior Priest. He'll still be fighty, but he'll at least add 1 more die to your dispell pool.

You do lose a lot of points getting the Templar Grand Master. If you need points, it might be useful to swap him into an Elector Count. Even comparably equipped, the Count saves you about 30 points, if not more, and is still about the same in combat abilities.

Just some quick thoughts. Hope that helps some.

Thanks for the tips. Still not terribly familiar with how everything works out in practice (case in point the HLR).

"Pippin" - Sigil was added 'cause I had 15 points to spare, didn't seem like too bad of an option, though I can see how it could be underwhelming. Probably can use these points for the horse for the Battle Wizard. So you'd suggest just keeping him to the armor shield and horse then?

TGM - For the Laurels, I'd need to drop the Shroud of Magnus as well. I have a tendency of over-protecting my characters, which explains the Dawn Armor, but I feel like he still could do with that Ward Save. Would you recommend the Holy Relic instead (which loses the MR(2) of the Shroud for the better Ward save) or just drop entirely for something else? Also, (and this shows a bit of my ignorance regarding Empire -___-) by Elector Count do you mean General or Arch Lector?

I only really play with a group of friends so I'm not terribly concerned about running into unexpected match-ups. That said, yeah this list is notably weak on the magic defense side. I guess I could drop the command off one of the units of Knights to turn Gutz into a Warrior priest.

Even though you stated your main opponents are your buddies, I'll try to keep this focused on more competitive thoughts. If nothing else, just to give you something to chew on with your compatriots.

Also, since it seems like you're just spinning up, I'll probably over-explain everything.

"Pippin" - Sigil was added 'cause I had 15 points to spare, didn't seem like too bad of an option, though I can see how it could be underwhelming. Probably can use these points for the horse for the Battle Wizard. So you'd suggest just keeping him to the armor shield and horse then?

MR1, that you get from the Sigil, basically means you get 1 dispell die for free for spells cast against Pippin.... not terribly impressive, as most combat spells start at power level 5 or 6. If the Sigil gave MR2, then it would be a lot better, as then you have a chance to cancel low-level spells. But, as just an MR1, it'll rarely, if ever, get a chance to protect.

The biggest thing your Warrior Priest does is he makes your charge huge, from his Righteous Fury re-rolls. So, he can actually get away with a lot of mundane armor. I'd keep him on barded horseback with the heavy armor. I'd also get him both the sheild, and the zweihammer. If you're going against low armor save, low toughness opponents, you can use the mace-and-sheild. If you're going against harded opponents, you can use the zweihammer. I was more just pointing out that the zweihander on horseback is not as nice as the zweihander on foot. On horseback it gives you +1 to strength, strike last; while on foot it's +2 to strength, strike last. Now, if you charge, you still get to strike first... so, just make sure you charge.

TGM - For the Laurels, I'd need to drop the Shroud of Magnus as well. I have a tendency of over-protecting my characters, which explains the Dawn Armor, but I feel like he still could do with that Ward Save. Would you recommend the Holy Relic instead (which loses the MR(2) of the Shroud for the better Ward save) or just drop entirely for something else? Also, (and this shows a bit of my ignorance regarding Empire -___-) by Elector Count do you mean General or Arch Lector?

The thing about the dawn armor is that, most weapons are either all or nothing against armor. A lot allow for no armor save, or hit you with such a strong attack as to severely penalize your armor save. For example, a str 6 attack is a -3 to your basic armor save. And you still auto-fail on an armor save roll of "1". Which is why the Dawn Armor is only a YMMV sort of equipment. If you go against a lot of low-strength attack opponents, you'll be nigh invulnerable. But against enemy heros, characters, semi-elites, and eliets they'll be punching through that armor anyway.

The Shroud is actually a solid. MR2 and a 5+ ward save gives you the ability to resist magic (MR2 usually means your dispell roll is going to be mostly 6 - 8. Which means your opponent is going to have to use 3 dice or more to cast spells, to ensure that your built in MR2 won't have a good chance of dispelling it.) I tend to use the Holy Relic (4+ ward save), but I also tend to have two wizards and a warrior priest, giving me 4 dispell scrolls and 5 Dispell dice. With your lower magical defense, the Shroud will probably serve you better.

With your smaller units, the Laurels are a way to give you a solid burst on your CR for your charge results. With Empire knights, it's all about the charge. Whatever you can do to maximize your CR, while keeping CR away from your opponent the better. Another way to look at it is that if your TGM equipped with Laurels of Victory hits with all 4 attacks, wounds with all 4 hits, and your opponent fails all 4 armor save rolls, you've just generated 8 CR. And that's before you add in all the other knights and horse attacks you get. I'm not saying it'll happen all the time, just that the potential is definately there.

My bad about the "Elector Count". In the previous edition the "Empire General" was the "Elector Count". I kinda liked the idea of the "Elector Count", so I kept with that, instead of calling him the "Empire General." Anyway, the big difference between the TGM and the Empire General is that the TGM is a bit better fighter, but the General gives you a more universalist character cheaper.

I only really play with a group of friends so I'm not terribly concerned about running into unexpected match-ups. That said, yeah this list is notably weak on the magic defense side. I guess I could drop the command off one of the units of Knights to turn Gutz into a Warrior priest.

See how it plays out. You might find you don't mind the weak magical defense. You do have the Shroud protecting your one character. And, if your friends don't do the offensive-magic-heavy army builds, then you shouldn't need a whole lot of magic defense.

anyway, just some quick thoughts.

Ok, took the advice into consideration and tweaked it to this:

LORDS
General- "Griffith" - 211
Full plate Armor, Shield, Barded Warhorse, Shroud of Magnus, Sword of Sigismund

HEROES
Warrior Priest- "Gutz" - 150
Barded Warhorse, Heavy Armor, Shield, Sword of Might, Icon of Magnus

Warrior Priest - "Pippin" - 114
Barded Warhorse, Heavy Armor, Shield, Great Hammer

Battle Wizard - "Rickert" - 129
2x DS, Barded Warhorse


CORE
30x Swordsmen - 175
Full command
Detachment: 9x Free Company - 45

30x Swordsmen - 175
Full command
Detachment: 9x Free Company - 45

10x Handgunners - 90
Muso, Marksman - Brace of Pistols

5x Knights - 155
Lance & Shield, Full Command

6x Knights - 178
Lance & Shield, Full Command

SPECIAL
5x Knights of the Inner Circle - 195
Lance & Shield, Full Command, Warbanner

6x Pistoliers - 132
Muso, Outrider - Repeater Pistol

2x Great Cannons - 200

TOTAL - 1994

I guess I could spend the last 6 points on a spare Free Company guy.

So - made the switch to a General/Elector Count. I lose the ItP and an attack, but he now consistently hits w/ S5 and has ASF.

Gutz became a Warrior Priest (still vacillating on this one) - making him slightly worse in combat, but still capable of dishing out some pain w/ Hatred.

Rickert was mounted.

So, I have 5 Dispel Dice with 2 Scrolls at the moment, with MR2 protecting my general. If I were to keep Gutz as a captain, I'd have 42 points with which to play around. Decisions, decisions.