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i thought chaos needed some ways to getdrop pod and outflank effects

chaos tactician 80 points base
ws bs s t w i a ld sv
4 4 4 4 2 4 2 10 3+

wargear
power armour bolt pistol
close combat weapon
frag/krag grenades

special rules
fearless
independent charector
5+invul
tactician

options
mok 10 points
mos 5Points
mon 20 points
mot 15 points

may replace ccw with
powerwepon 15 points
power fist 25 points

tactics
deepstrikers 40 points
scouts 30 points
heavy weoan troops 20 points


tactician -must take 1 tactic

deepstrikers- everythin may deepstike(like drop pods (half in turn 1)) execpt nonwalking vehicles

scouts- everything gains the specil rule scout

heavy wepan troops- alows 1 havoc squad to be taken as a troops choice

so what do you all think?

I would encourage a points per model cost for this.

Reason: In a 500 point game, his effects are not very useful, while in a 40,000 point Apoc game...it is far too cheap.

Well...what about:
Stubborn for everyone?
Twinlink Meltas/Flamers/etc.?
Outflank for everyone?
Fleet for everyone?
Making sternguard score?
Giving a tactical squad a veteran skill?

Do they have a 'points per model cost'?

Scouts is horribly undercosted. 110 points to give every unit a free move before the game is broken. Landraiders and Rhinos surging forwards for 12" before turn one while filled to the brim with Bezerkers and the like....yeah, too much. I would suggest replacing everyone gets scouts with the ability to outflank one unit of your choice.

Sanctjud wrote:Well...what about:
Stubborn for everyone?
Twinlink Meltas/Flamers/etc.?
Outflank for everyone?
Fleet for everyone?
Making sternguard score?
Giving a tactical squad a veteran skill?

Do they have a 'points per model cost'?

I would be the first to argue that these abilities (mostly listed from Codex: Space Marines), should be given a point-per-model cost.

I dunno, it seems way too overpowered, no matter what the point cost is.

Eventually, all armies will be exactly the same with different paint jobs and wingdings.

Skinnattittar wrote:Eventually, all armies will be exactly the same with different paint jobs and wingdings.

Nah...they'll keep making 'cool' rules that inevitably are broken by newer codexes with newer and 'cooler' rules.

Yes, but then everyone from all the other armies will want those rules as well, even if they are horrible rules or pointless ones that have nothing to do with their Armies.

If you want drop-pods and outflank abilities, pick an army that has access to them. If not, make do. Chaos Space Marines are not Imperial Space Marines, and they should have some pros and cons for each.

But all of chaos HQ are "Uberkillymonstas" not affecting the build of the rest of the army at all, which is why we should have someone to affect tactics instead of rush right into CC.

Read this and imagine it in a high-pitch whiny voice.

Addicted to Bleach wrote:But all of chaos HQ are "Uberkillymonstas" not affecting the build of the rest of the army at all, which is why we should have someone to affect tactics instead of rush right into CC.

-considers all I have ever read about Chaos tactics- Yeah, that's pretty much their tactics right there. Don't want to kill their fluff-to-table rules.

Skinnattittar wrote:Read this and imagine it in a high-pitch whiny voice.

Addicted to Bleach wrote:But all of chaos HQ are "Uberkillymonstas" not affecting the build of the rest of the army at all, which is why we should have someone to affect tactics instead of rush right into CC.

-considers all I have ever read about Chaos tactics- Yeah, that's pretty much their tactics right there. Don't want to kill their fluff-to-table rules.

Although I disagree with the character posted by the OP, I also strongly disagree with this post.
Seriously. I sincerely doubt that you have read the backround fluff for Chaos, and any information in the Horus Heresy series...

Horus and Abbafail don't come to mind as tacticians? It isn't a stretch to imagine that there are others like them (of lesser power perhaps.)

Chaos wouldnt use drop pods
the drop pod would eat them

The Chaos Codex describes the Steel Brethren as making extensive use of transports and drop pods.
Shouldn't it be a unit in our codex if the codex says we use it?

There is also a lot of fluff pertaining to brilliant Imperial Guard commanders, extensive fluff about heavily armored, heavily armed, and technologically advanced (compared to the current Guardsmen) Guard armies, and many of them. But their codex contains neither.

Why? Well basically because what we play on the table isn't supposed to be every possibility that exists at Che Vito points out.

There is a lot of technology and plenty of variation so that every army could have just about anything in one form or another that everyone else has. The problem? Well, then all the armies would be the same and you would just be choosing different models and reasons for why they have what they got and how it works, but play wise they would be the same.

There is fluff supporting drop pod use among Chaos, there is also fluff supporting similar tech among Guard, Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, and Tau. There are fluff examples of super-close-combat Guard regiments, but if anyone were to suggest a squad of power-weapon equiped, WS5 and I5 Guardsmen for a reasonable price, the thread would explode with denunciations of the very idea that the Guard could have such a thing. Despite the countless books with Guard/Human characters with such weapons and skills.

Skinnattittar wrote: There are fluff examples of super-close-combat Guard regiments, but if anyone were to suggest a squad of power-weapon equiped, WS5 and I5 Guardsmen for a reasonable price, the thread would explode with denunciations of the very idea that the Guard could have such a thing. Despite the countless books with Guard/Human characters with such weapons and skills.

This is why I am very supportive of specialized army lists. I would be perfectly okay with what you have suggested (although WS4 seems more appropriate) assuming it is appropriately costed. In the old Guard codex, there was absolutely an ability to make a CC heavy army that was competitive (in 4th edition, mind you.)

Che-Vito wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote: There are fluff examples of super-close-combat Guard regiments, but if anyone were to suggest a squad of power-weapon equiped, WS5 and I5 Guardsmen for a reasonable price, the thread would explode with denunciations of the very idea that the Guard could have such a thing. Despite the countless books with Guard/Human characters with such weapons and skills.

This is why I am very supportive of specialized army lists. I would be perfectly okay with what you have suggested (although WS4 seems more appropriate) assuming it is appropriately costed. In the old Guard codex, there was absolutely an ability to make a CC heavy army that was competitive (in 4th edition, mind you.)

Warrior Weapons is what I believe you are speaking of in combination of some of the other "Doctrines." Unfortunately, they were still heavily lacking in actual ability, though they weren't horrible, the codex in general was just broken. But even then, many people were in arms against it, and so was I for the fluff's sake, as I had never heard of such a thing that the codex described (feral warriors, as opposed to close combat trained troops), and they didn't have elevated WS and I.

Your argument still doesn't stand against my summation of the eventual result of amalgamation of the armies and player preferencing of the fluff.

Skinnattittar wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote: There are fluff examples of super-close-combat Guard regiments, but if anyone were to suggest a squad of power-weapon equiped, WS5 and I5 Guardsmen for a reasonable price, the thread would explode with denunciations of the very idea that the Guard could have such a thing. Despite the countless books with Guard/Human characters with such weapons and skills.

This is why I am very supportive of specialized army lists. I would be perfectly okay with what you have suggested (although WS4 seems more appropriate) assuming it is appropriately costed. In the old Guard codex, there was absolutely an ability to make a CC heavy army that was competitive (in 4th edition, mind you.)

Warrior Weapons is what I believe you are speaking of in combination of some of the other "Doctrines." Unfortunately, they were still heavily lacking in actual ability, though they weren't horrible, the codex in general was just broken. But even then, many people were in arms against it, and so was I for the fluff's sake, as I had never heard of such a thing that the codex described (feral warriors, as opposed to close combat trained troops), and they didn't have elevated WS and I.

Your argument still doesn't stand against my summation of the eventual result of amalgamation of the armies and player preferencing of the fluff.

A close combat squad that you speak of might fill an Elite slot, with increased WS and I, mainly because mostly Guardsmen just don't live long enough to justify WS4 and I4.

I am not speaking of just Doctrines, but also of special Chapter Approved lists. As a whole, I think that relatively anything is possible in the 40k universe, so why not make the fluff for such units instead?

((Edit: As far as armies all becoming similar, I see your point. I don't think that this character is stepping on the toes of others too much. You're a Guard player, if I were you, I'd be more worried about how similar IG and the next Tau edition will become))

Che-Vito wrote:I would encourage a points per model cost for this.

Reason: In a 500 point game, his effects are not very useful, while in a 40,000 point Apoc game...it is far too cheap.

exatcly, but other than that it's a nice idea!

I tend not to worry too much about "like Guard" armies, as so far none of the other races are like Guard enough but Tau, and there is plenty of table for us to share similarities. Who knows, maybe we'll even see a return of shooting tactics outside of Guard v. Guard (yes, they do exist, most players just aren't good at them).

This unit does step heavily on the toes of Space Marines exclusives. People should be wanting things other armies have, that's why you should start other armies!

If other armies were to pick up powers like Lash of Submission (Commissars should get Lash of the Emperor, a clone rule to Lash of Submission!) or vehicles impervious to Stunned and Shaken results like the deamonically possessed ones of Chaos, do you not think Chaos loyals would be upset? I would, and I would love to get rules to allow my Punisher to run around always able to shoot!