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HE's got a massive boost with ASF the last army book release, however at tournaments the benefits of that and the other upgrades they got haven't come through to strong wins.

I'm almost universally a turnament player and I am yet to loose to them (using lizardmen and O&G) since their list was redone.

So where is the problem.

They all seem to be the same.

Baring 1 or 2 minor changes all the armies look very similar, so opponents have learnt how to beat or at least tie with HE players.

Thoughts?

High Elves just don't have that many competitive options to choose from. The Rare slots for example, are only Repeater Bolt Throwers and Great Eagles. While they are both nice units, they don't give you a lot of variety.

The Core slots are almost always minimum Archers, as the High Elves Core choices just aren't good enough. The Core choices don't beat stuff in combat and don't shoot well enough to take more then the minimum amount either.

There really are only three competitive Special choices: Sword Masters of Hoeth, Dragon Princes and Phoenix Guard.
Chariots are just too vulnerable, being instantly killed on S7 (and Tiranoc Chariots just don't deal enough damage).
White Lions have just one advantage, moving through difficult terrain without penalty. I'd much rather have twice the attacks (Sword Masters) or have twice the survivability (Phoenix Guard).
Ellyrian Reavers just cost way to much to be worth it. They shoot worse then Dark Riders, while costing more. On top of that, they are Special as opposed to Dark Riders being Core.
Shadow Warriors are just Skirmishing Archers, which cost a lot more.
Silver Helms are just cheaper Dragon Princes, but have only half the attacks, lower WS, lower I and lower Ld. They just aren't worth it compared to Dragon Princes.

For Lord choices there is either Teclis or a Star Dragon mounted Prince. They just outshine the rest of the Lord choices.

Heroes are either Mages in a Magic Heavy army or Nobles in a fighting army (mostly mounted, riding with the Dragon Princes).

Since there are just a few Magic Items that really stand out (The Seerstaff of Saphery, Ring of Fury, Talisman of Loec, The Skeinsliver, Banner of Sorcery, Battle Banner, Vambraces of Defense, Helm of Fortune), the characters usually have the same Magic Items as well.

I am of the complete other opinion on White Lions Airmaniac.

I think they are better than both Phoenix guard and swaordsmasters.

Extra save vs shooting attack, move through forests (so can swing through an area the enemy would not normally worry about defending, and st 6 attacks, and best of all stubborn. Throw the banner making them immune to fear and terror and they are a bugger to shift.

Vs anyone except other HEs they are great.... but amongst the 3 listed HE units I agree Phoenix guard would be best when fighting each other. Fear, I6, St 4 and the ward save is great.

I agree on all High Elf lists being (effectively) the same, but I do disagree about them being easy to play against. It's all missile weapons with the Star Dragon and another unit or two hanging back for counter punch. What they will do is always grab the easy victory points while denying a lot of points from the opponent. Most Dark Elf armies play this exact same way with their Dragon (and prosper). A friend of mine was undefeated with his High Elves this year at the ETC, and he defeated two (if not three, can't remember) DoC armies in the process.

He used the Prince on Star Dragon, 2 level 2 Mages, 30 Archers, 6 Dragon Princes, 16 White Lions, 5 Shadow Warriors, 2 RBTs and 2 Great Eagles.

I was thinking that if I was going to run HE's, I would fill up on 2 units of 25 Pheonix Guard as anvils, whilst using 2 units of Dragon Princes for counter-punch, a Dragon Prince, some scroll caddies, and then whatever the hell else I'd need.

Thanks for the list Therion (and good to see you posting).

That actually wouldn't do too badly on composition at tourneys here in Australia (the price on star dragon is an auto hit, but I have the model so who cares).

Therion do you know the kit out for the Prince on star dragon?

Did he combat and unkillable (Vambraces and armour of caledor) or shooty (bow that does 3 st 5 shots, and vambraces)

超兄貴 sama ,

Any ideas when or if High Elves will get new Sword Master and White Lion minis? ( or perhaps any ideas on how to convert current archers and spearman so they dont look so awful ) ?

I'd say that they will release new minis when the book is redone, in 3-5 years time.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I'd say that they will release new minis when the book is redone, in 3-5 years time.

3-5 years!!!

Hmph!...how viable is something like this: ( mostly plastic yay... )

Eltharion & Stormwing
Korhil on Lion Chariot
Mage on Tiranoc Chariot
Mage on Tiranoc Chariot

Archers
Archers

Lion Chariot
Lion Chariot
Lion Chariot

Repeater Bolt thrower
Repeater Bolt thrower

Against a small elite force (cav WOC, Brets, Empire cav, HEs, some DE armies) probably quite well.

Against anyone else they will struggle as they can't pop ranks and will be quickly whittled down if there is any shooting in the enemy army.

I have found white lions a mixed bag, they are pretty good against Knights without a large amount of attacks and that require lances to win, but otherwise i have found them to be lackluster and usually deficient against infantry blocks that use static CR as they get whittled down so easily and can't cause enough wounds. My other largest complaint about them is that magic missiles are not effected by the cloak, so they die the same to 2d6 S4 as sword masters.
On the other hand they are really good for locking units in place, especially with Gem of Courage and Lion banner, they will not move at least for the first turn and most likely for longer.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Therion do you know the kit out for the Prince on star dragon?

Did he combat and unkillable (Vambraces and armour of caledor) or shooty (bow that does 3 st 5 shots, and vambraces)

IIRC the kit was radiant gem,reaver bow and probably some magicboost doodad such as jewel of the dusk. Remember, though, that that list/guy was tailored to the team tournament and the etc-comp in mind. Nevertheless, I'd choose shooty dragon rider over meleeguy in any case, be he armed with either reaver bow or seafarer's, as he's has more uses that way.