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They seem to me like the noob unit used to kill MEQs. I also don't hear much mention of them on Dakka. I have a full squad, but I haven't used them in over a year.


So I'm wondering how I can bring them back into the fold.

Exarch_Nektel wrote:They seem to me like the noob unit

Thats the large extent of who fields them. I have ran 2 squads and parked them in cover with eldrad for gaks and giggles. In 4th they actually stared down an entire guard infantry platoon and won the shoot out due to fortune/fortune/guide every turn. But in 5th they are not as good. Expensive, and very very fragile. Plus with cover they are simply not competitive. A very very easy unit to counter, shoot some bolters and then and you will take out a chunk. However they work well if someone is dumb enough to do 2 things.
1-move a unit into clear sight of them.
2-not shoot at them.

These are one of the few units that can cripple a marine tac squad in one volley.

Success I've had with them is generally not of the point and shoot variety, but rather the Exarch with a Tempest Launcher. It can ignore cover and with Fast Shot you can drop 3 blasts. If you're worried about them getting mowed down too quickly place them behind something and fire the Exarch indirectly, though if you plan ahead to do this you probably won't want a full squad, which also keeps the cost down. Since you can already ignore cover, Doom cast on your target can replace the benefits from Crackshot, thus I prefer Fast Shot, esp. with Guide on them to re-roll scatters, which can be far off due to indirect firing. This helps with a lot of the afore mentioned problems.

Really the main tactic is just shoot with them, but to add estra devastation use a farseers guide and doom powers, then its really deadly. Not a noob unit IMO.

Eldar Own wrote:Not a noob unit IMO.

Agreed.

When in cover (and fortuned) these guys hold their own rather well. Use their superior range to minimize incoming fire. If that's set, they are a very good area denial unit against many units.

They are not as good as Lootas because they don't have the valume of fire to decimate big units and not the strength to threaten light/medium vehicles, though.

Greets
Schepp himself

Eldar Own wrote:Really the main tactic is just shoot with them, but to add estra devastation use a farseers guide and doom powers, then its really deadly. Not a noob unit IMO.

Mr. Mayhem wrote:

Eldar Own wrote:Not a noob unit IMO.

Agreed.

I guess you guys are noobs then

5th ed put a big hurt on immobile firepower.

If your weapons can't move, it's much easier for your opponent to claim cover saves from them, and in 1/3rd of all missions (every Dawn of War scenario) they're going to be missing on at least one turn of firing when they move on the table, and likely two turns while they try to move into a decent position.

Then there's the fact that they're very, very expensive for what they can do.

I think that taking the unit for the exarch with the tempest launcher can be worth it, but only as long as you've got vehicle busting from your non-HS slots (bright lances on wave serpents don't really count, they're highly unreliable).

willydstyle ... they can have a place its just you've not seen them working at their best. Last time i used them they did very well. What you do is take 3, upgrade one to an exarch with tempest launcher and decide if your going to take Fast shot or Crack shot (if you normally play in lots of area terrain then Crack shot otherwise fast shot does better) and then deploy them out of LOS. The exarch happily shoots from cover at any one within range since they're a multiple Barrage missing and getting a cover save against them is hard. Every turn i was dumping out 3 blasts at Str4 AP3.

But i do also normally run with 2 fire prism.

willydstyle wrote:I think that taking the unit for the exarch with the tempest launcher can be worth it, but only as long as you've got vehicle busting from your non-HS slots (bright lances on wave serpents don't really count, they're highly unreliable).

Tri wrote:willydstyle ... they can have a place its just you've not seen them working at their best. Last time i used them they did very well. What you do is take 3, upgrade one to an exarch with tempest launcher and decide if your going to take Fast shot or Crack shot (if you normally play in lots of area terrain then Crack shot otherwise fast shot does better) and then deploy them out of LOS. The exarch happily shoots from cover at any one within range since they're a multiple Barrage missing and getting a cover save against them is hard. Every turn i was dumping out 3 blasts at Str4 AP3.

But i do also normally run with 2 fire prism.

Did you read what I wrote?

willydstyle wrote:

Tri wrote:willydstyle ... they can have a place its just you've not seen them working at their best. Last time i used them they did very well. What you do is take 3, upgrade one to an exarch with tempest launcher and decide if your going to take Fast shot or Crack shot (if you normally play in lots of area terrain then Crack shot otherwise fast shot does better) and then deploy them out of LOS. The exarch happily shoots from cover at any one within range since they're a multiple Barrage missing and getting a cover save against them is hard. Every turn i was dumping out 3 blasts at Str4 AP3.

But i do also normally run with 2 fire prism.

Did you read what I wrote?

Yes

willydstyle wrote:I think that taking the unit for the exarch with the tempest launcher can be worth it, but only as long as you've got vehicle busting from your non-HS slots (bright lances on wave serpents don't really count, they're highly unreliable).

i agree with that but i don't agree with

I guess you guys are noobs then

5th ed put a big hurt on immobile firepower

Immobile weapons are fine. Too many people automatically degrade them. Doesn't matter if it is dark reapers, devastators, long fangs, ect these unit are well worth the time needed to set up.

It depends more on the points cost of the unit.

If the unit is too expensive, it means that your opponent is able to more effectively deny larger parts of your army the ability to influence the game.

This is one of the reasons why Long Fangs are popping up in many "competitive" lists: they are inexpensive enough that even if your opponent is hiding from them, you have a whole lot more army left over that they can't hide from easily.

I think that Dark Reapers and Devastators fall into the "too expensive for the firepower" category, generally.

The tempest launcher exarch is the one thing that makes the unit worth taking, and in many lists using a HS slot for pure anti-infantry is not always worth it.

willydstyle wrote:It depends more on the points cost of the unit.

If the unit is too expensive, it means that your opponent is able to more effectively deny larger parts of your army the ability to influence the game.

... So what your saying is a unit that forces your enemy to manoeuvre round them is not an effect way to spend your points? Personally I think if a unit can sit still and force the enemy to move where i want them is worth the effort. You're free to disagree, like most tactics there's a counter strategy. I've never regretted taking them nor for that matter taking my Shadow Weaver Support weapons batteries. They've both earned a place in my army lists.

No, I'm saying that there's a diminishing returns.

If you're forcing your opponent to avoid certain parts of the battlefield, you should have some of your own units that can then take advantage of that to actually destroy the enemy.

Some units are too expensive, so that the rest of your army, the part of your army that does the actual killing if your opponent is avoiding the static parts, can't be effective at what they need to do.

I have used Havocs to deny areas of the battlefield to good effect.

It does not change the fact that my lists with the Havocs in them are weaker than my lists without them.

willydstyle wrote:
I guess you guys are noobs then

If you're the one who can't use them so that they're worth their points then you shouldn't be pointing fingers.

willydstyle wrote:I think that taking the unit for the exarch with the tempest launcher can be worth it, but only as long as you've got vehicle busting from your non-HS slots (bright lances on wave serpents don't really count, they're highly unreliable).

Well, while the Exarch can be fairly anti-vehicle if you arm it with a EML and Fast Shot, that still means that they're just standing & shooting and will be experiencing the problems Eidolon referred to above. Also as we have BS4 units all armed w/ Melta guns in transports available as an Elite choice it's no big deal to use a Heavy spot for some solid anti-infantry IMO.

I've played reapers a few times with pretty good success. Take tempest with crack shot and add a farseer with fortune and guide. Put a small unit of harlies in front to guard and give 4+ cover.

You then have harlies with Veil in front, reapers with 4+ cover 3+ armor fortuned in the rear. Tempest launcher is the key with 2 blasts that ignore cover, reroll to hit, and to wound. That is typically enough to decimate any MEQ squad and the other other 4 reapers are just the icing.

The downside an reason they don't get played is because there is simply better options (typically). Reapers with that combo alone is 217 pts, while 2 prisms is 230 pts and has the ability to shoot S10 Ap1 blast or S6 Ap3 Large Blast from 60" away while moving 12" per turn. That can also buy you 2 Swordlords with dual flamers for 200pts or 4 Walkers with 2x Scater lasers (4 s6 shots per) per walker for 240 pts.

They are good and can do good, but there is things that can just do the job a little better. Give them relentless and I'd prob field them.

Blue Dagger said it well. Reapers just compete with a lot of better choices for heavy support slots. They have their place.

They are fun to break out against my friend who plays necrons. But in building an all-comers list I'd rather take warwalkers or fire prisms.

augustus5 wrote:Blue Dagger said it well. Reapers just compete with a lot of better choices for heavy support slots. They have their place.

They are fun to break out against my friend who plays necrons. But in building an all-comers list I'd rather take warwalkers or fire prisms.

Vs a necron player they are just all sorts of fun to play lol.

3 man squad with exarch with fast shot and eml is reasonable. Two 2 bs 5 eml shots is pretty strong. It's consistant which is what all the other HS lack.

Dark Reapers are really restricted to Exarch Delivery systems, and not overly cheap ones at that. As Wyldstyle pointed out, immobile heavy weapon squads are simply all less good in 5th than they were in 4th, due to Dawn of War deployment, easy access to cover saves, and the loss of scoring status.

At their heart, Reapers are good at shooting at MEQs outside of cover (and a rhino), and that's less and less common of an occurrence. Tie in the fact that even with the exarch toys Dark Reapers are at best the fifth most useful heavy support option for the Eldar and you have a unit that can be fun, but are too limited in scope and mediocre in ability to be in too many lists.

Ditto Polonius.

To add to the discussion of imobile firepower, the issue is not that your opponent has to avoid them with certain resources, but that immobility makes it easier to deploy the correct resources to counter the Reapers. Low cost might still balance that out, but Reapers don't have that.

Compare them even to other immobile Eldar shooters, like Pathfinders. The Pathfinders do almost the same function (decent MEQ, but better vs. high toughness, worse vs. GEQ etc.) for less cost, are more durable thanks to their improved coversaves, and are a scoring unit with scout. The Reapers' 3+ AS is pretty useless overall as the unit will be almost as screwed in CC as Rangers would be.

Also, compare a unit of 3 Reapers to a Prism. Which is more useful and resilient? Anyways, you get the point.

About the "not for noobs" comment- funny, that can be taken 2 ways. Either that they're not a foolish choice that only a noob would go for, or they're something that isn't easy to win with and thus noobs should avoid. I'd go with the latter, as the unit will require careful shepherding and thoughtful use to use to greatest effect. However, even with best use they're not as good as other Eldar anti-MEQ tools.

Isn't it some 70-90 points JUST for the exarch with his gear, special ability, and either tempest launcher or EML.

For that price you can get a farseer with multiple wounds and a psychic power. Like everyone said, it just seems that they compete with more killy, stronger other choices of Heavy support or elt's and hqs. But IMO nothing is cooler than the multiple barrage, reroll scatter, doomed enemies idea. But that is costly.