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I think this topic belongs in the 40k tactics forum. I was debating between this and gen. forums but I chose this forum.

Anyway...

Heres the two guys' blogs and youtube channels

Blogs:

Saimhann A.K.A. Fritz
http://saimhann.blogspot.com/

Jawaballs
http://warhammer40kbloodangels.blogspot.com/

Youtube

Saimhann
http://www.youtube.com/user/WayOfSaimHann

Jawaballs
http://www.youtube.com/user/jawaballs

_____________

Basically, these guys have a ton of credentials when it comes to their 40k careers, they often place well in tournaments, even with underrated armybooks (Blood angels and Necrons)

I read a lot about 40k tactics and these guys are so unconventional but damn, they do it so well.

For example, if I add a venerable dreadnought in a list, people here often say they are not worth the upgraded stats (From what I tend to read) While jawaballs and fritz encourage upgrades like venerable and extra armor.

I don't know really who to listen to here because I don't really see people's credentials here when it comes to advice.

Who is the experienced tourney vet in dakka here?

Ha ha you're jst growing up kid. (j/k)

Really what it all comes down to is your playstyle and how YOU like to play the game.

People will say stuff sucks all the time, until somebody else says it rocks, then It will rock.

listen to yourself first last and only, treat everything else as "helpful advice"

I also pay alot of attention to their blogs, and too am fascinated how the Dakka community feels about their advice.

I would say:
listen to what they have to say, it's often good stuff. but take it under advisement and not as law, because ultimetly there are so many variables.

40k advice is generally only useful for list building and perhaps some rather obvious DONT DO THIS type of advice

The problem is your victory record will depend on your local opponents.. If everyone at your store sucks then it doesnt matter what you do, they'll prob FIND a way to lose

However, if your local club has a bunch of all-stars then the only way youre gonna get better and beat them is to play a TON of games and probably lose them all until you learn enough :p

Experience trumps the internet for any advice..

Here are a few key things to remember ( I dont have my own fancy blog but ive won virtually all the semis in 'ard boyz in the pittsburgh/ohio area and a ton normal tournaments

1. Know everyones rules.. You should have a strong working knowledge of what all the GOOD units in opposing armies do. Especially, learn how eldar psychic powers work and what their key units do.. Dont be like "uhhh.. okay" when a dark eldar player shows up.. You must also memorize your own and understand areas of contention

2. Dont frackin give up.. This is a HUGE problem with many players. Ive beaten dozens of "tough" opponents simply by understanding their psychology (Granted Ive played these people a few times) and knew they were the kind of player that gives up if you kill his favorite unit.. never ever give up in your head, 40k is NOT WFB.. A solid player can turn out a draw if you keep your head in the game even after get beat down on turn 1 and 2

3. List building.. dont bring an awful list. There isnt much more to say about that. Space marines need terminators, eldar need farseers, etc.. If you bring a scout list be prepared to get stomped. However, dont bring a cookie cutter list you found on the webbernets.. Remember experience trumps internet

4. Avoid mistakes in game such as forgetting to do things.. Be calm and go through the phases of the game.. unit by unit if you have to. If youre the kind of player who forgets things, write them down.. make little flash cards and place them by your units or next to you so you remember

5. No whining.. Losing makes you better. Try to play players who are above your skill level but not astromically above it and try to avoid players who are well below it.. HOWEVER you can handicap yourself with weak lists to play newer players and it'll actually help you.. Be humble and admit you arent as good at someone rather than saying the dreaded words of.. "Its my luck". No it is not, the good players win a ton because they follow the above and can do so despite "luck".. Granted, sometimes the dice can screw you over but they will help you just as much

I agree it has alot to do with play style. Sure you might read/watch those and play the EXACT same list they recommend, and play horribly. But if you write up something your used to or like, you might end up playing better then with said list. 40K is a serious play test when it comes to finding a list that you just kick ass with. Sure friendly games it doesnt really matter that much. But if your group is having a tourny or you make some type of campaign, you dont want to loose lol.
So really I suggest loosing ALOT. That will help you figure out what your opponents are good at, and what you suck with. It sounds a little backwards yes, but in all seriousness, that will help you become better at your army.

I don't have to much advice when it comes to who you should listen to as I follow both youtube channels and visit 4 forums. The biggest help that I got when I started playing 40K was to find a couple local gamers that I could relate to and bounce ideas off of.

Kirasu, space marines dont need terminators in most list, at the moment shooty termie squads kinda suck.

Sorry I didnt think anyone would think I meant shooty terminators :p I mean assault terminators.. Theyre the only competent CC unit marines got and 5th ed requires CC of some sort generally (overkill vs guard and tau but amazing vs everyone else)

I dont like assault termies much either. They need a transport to be effective and the only transport then can have is a Landraider.

As said a few times here, its down to your own play style.
While some people may say a certain unit is amazing, you may not get along with using it.

You will find alot of people have a similar play style, but none has the same.
Its just a case of trial and error with different layouts and units in your army.
If you havent tried something, give it a go, might find they work better than your current list unit does.

Also, it comes down to play style once again when tactics are involved.
There are common place tactics used, but when playing through games, think how you could adapt them.
the common ones are now pretty easy to spot and pull apart with ease, so by tinkering with unit composition and structure you can change your tactics to suit you more.

Eh, the advice is advice. It is all based on opinions, and no one is actually right or wrong. The correct answer for you will be based on the way you play the game, the composition of the list, and the way the list is designed to work.

These guys likely do really well because they are tremendous at playing to their strengths as players in list building and execution. They're able to build a list that they are comfortable with, play it very well, and use it to exploit the weaknesses in the other player and list (note that player and list are seperate here... that is important. You're most likely playing against the player first and the list second if you're playing against good players).

Basically, it is outstanding to do as much research as possible and checking out blogs like the one you've listed are great, as is browsing this forum, and any number of other things you can do to expand your knowledge. At the end of the day when it comes to it though, you still have to build the list and play the game, so you are the one making the decisions. Play what you're comfortable with and play what fits the way you play the game.

why wouldnt a marine player want to take a vendread x.x they DONT DIE .... EVER, they can eat lascannon fire all day long and have a great chance of survival, while your frustrated opponent keeps channeling even more fire at it, which still probably fails to down it >.>

Because its a question of point cost vs relative worth..

Most people would say the dreadnoughts ability to not die as much isnt worth 60 points because he'll be shaken most of the game thus meaning he adds no firepower

60 points generally isnt worth that

What you hear, here on dakka, is mostly correct.

Is a Venerable dread better then a normal one? yes.
Should you automatically use Venerable dreads? No

What you should do is start your army list with roughly the units you want to use and then spend points on them. Venerable used to be an upgrade, even though it now comes as a separate option I feel it should still be treated as an upgrade.

The two players you have mention are extremely good players. They play a style that works for them. I personally shudder at the though of playing lots of vypers but he know how to use them so they work all right. You'll hear no end of bad things about swooping hawks, i still have one 5 man unit (some times 2 units) in most of my games.

To quote a song

Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of
fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the
ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth.

This is exactly why I stress people to find their own playstyle they like and models they like... and play with them till you MAKE them good.

There are certainly more than a few tournament veterans on Dakka, though most of us don't take the time to write very detailed tactical posts.

If you have specific questions about stuff those guys write, feel free to ask here for a second opinion. We may agree or disagree.

It really depends on your play style, but those "pros" (GWAR and JAWABALLS amongst them) usually have pretty good ideas, but remember to take them with a grain of salt.

Kirasu wrote:Experience trumps the internet for any advice.

Amen.

Kirasu wrote:Dont be like "uhhh.. okay" when a dark eldar player shows up.

As a DE player I strongly disagree with this advice.

Happygrunt wrote:It really depends on your play style, but those "pros" (GWAR and JAWABALLS amongst them) usually have pretty good ideas, but remember to take them with a grain of salt.

As a standard caveat, I suggest every one always test out what I write before making it their own. But I completely support taking what you will from whatever I spew out. And some of you are right about strength of opponents. I have to say about half the games I play are against great players and half are against beginners. But sooner or later if I travel the country enough I might start earning some cred! Or get my butt kicked enough to not leave Connecticut.

I always welcome people who question my stuff, especially if they post up reasonable and logical opposition. If I am doing something wrong, I want to know! Plus It makes me better to be challenged. That is why I post online. A lot of time I have written statements and been proven wrong and turned around and used what I learned in a game situation.

As for extra armor? Absolutely on all vehicles and dreadnoughts. It might not always matter, but when it does, it hurts. I've provided a lot of evidence supporting extra armor, including an example last weekend where a guy possibly lost the entire tournament because he did not have it on his Wave Serpent.

Venerable? On Blood Angels Furioso dreads, its a passionate yes. It is a 20 point upgrade that I can take on all of my dreads. Generic Marines? Maybe on one. But I think they have better elite choices then dreads. Dunno, I'm not a marine player.

More to come...

Jawaballs

There is not better then answer here. Thats what it comes down too. Use them all. I mean sure those guys might be better then most of us, but dakka has a wider number of posters then a few blogs. So we have more varied advice. And there are some really good players that post on here too.

A number of bloggers post here, some of them place big at big tournaments as well. I read Fritz's blog and watch his youtube, but what it comes down to is your own tactics. Those guys found their own way, a lot of what Fritz talks about is 'mind games' and 'tricknology' which is more psychology than actual tactics, and I like that. Though, I will say Fritz has contradicted himself on occasion. (His tactics for necrons clashed with most of dakka, then he decided to try the deciver+monolith idea, and got three wins with it, and was forced to admit that his old necron tactics were all gak.)

If you have the opportunity to read blogs and forums, then you are broadening your base of knowledge for game play. So, it is a good idea.

One of the great things about Fritz and Jawaballs advice is that they do not buy in to the mindset so many have: "you must play certain units, and everything else stinks." Rather, Fritz says, "Decide what you want to play with and figure out how to make it work through play-testing." I believe that he and Jawa are right, you can be successful running the units that you enjoy and want to run. You do not have to run "hot units" or "in" units to win.

I have noticed that most great players' success is more based on the fact that they are great players and less based on their army lists.

I find Jawaballs and Fritz to be great sources of information and am thankful that they share their 40k experiences with the rest of us.

I know very few people who have the approach of 'only units x y and z, final destination'. But that is a very good point. While certain units are absolute garbage, whirlwinds and biovores come to mind, very few arent. Oh wait what is this
Fieldmarshal Goering
He thinks nazi stuff is cool

Whirlwinds aren't garbage. I find they can actually be quite effective, though they're outshined a little by the Thunderfire Cannon, which fulfills a similar role.

Yeah, I guess they are just overshadowed by the slightly more expensive and much better thunderfire. I should have clarified. Bad units are generally ones that pay more or similar for a worse ability. But its all relative. Hell ill make a better response tomorrow, work and school has me beat today.

Well...though similar the WW and the TFC are different.

With enough LoS blocking terrain and deployment forethought...the Whirlwind is unkillable (cause you can't kill what you can't see [indirect aside]).

While the TFC can at most get cover saves, but is still available to be shot at.

Then we have differeing AP values for their 'ignore cover' firing mode...the WW being better at taking out Scout equivalent armor in cover, while the TFC goes up only to GEQ stomping ability.

Etc...like the whole thread is getting at...it depends person to person what they find useful or not.

/shrug, but there are things I personally would never use and praise their crapiness from now until forever...and that would be the Dust Buckets.

Eidolon wrote:Oh wait what is this
Fieldmarshal Goering
He thinks nazi stuff is cool

The fact that I share a surname with a famous Nazi, does not mean that I think "nazi stuff is cool." How much control did you have over your surname? Maybe it is a bit misleading I suppose, but you didn't bother to ask about it. You just assumed . . . .

Yeah, lets not jump to conclusions. Godwin's law, Eidolon. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Mostly what you see on Dakka is hte frequent rehashing on popular net lists. If you build a list outside of this realm you will be quickly called on it. Also frequently you see people quickly come up with some rock unit to counter your scissors unit, even though the rock unit may actually rarely ever see any play. While it's important to be aware of the net lists it's not going to help you grow as a master strategist if you only play net lists. Usually net lists consist of a lot of spam. At the end of the day if you want to be good and win a lot you must be able to develop solid army lists. Net lists will never be a viable subsitute for what you learn from playing a lot of games. The good gamers are aware of the net lists and know how to counter them.

I think what blogs have to offer over Dakka are useful tactics. I play BA and from reading what Jawa has to say we both do a lot of things the same way -> Dante/Corbulo, heavy mech, rhino DC, etc. Those are all about your list but Jawa goes into a lot of detail how to use his list(s). For example, pillboxing - tactical Marines sit in their rhino on an objective and shoot their heavy weapon. DC are more survivable in a transport. Putting Corbulo in a transport extends the range of his special ability to grant furious charge. I don't agree with everything he says but we have come to many of the same conclusions, one being the only competitive build for BA is Dante/Corbulo. Sure there are people on the Internet that espouse the use of all jump infantry build but in reality it's not competitive - most any IG army can light it up like the 4th of July. I'm getting away from the main point though. Going to any blog requires the use of caveat emptor. Just because it's on the Internet does not mean it is the gospel come down from the Golden Throne.

G

Finding an experienced player with a style that looks fun to you is a good way to start. If Fritz's alternately evasive and aggressive jetbike tactics look fun to you, try aping him and then adjusting whatever you can't seem to make work. For example, I used to play all-mech. After reading a few of Blackmoor's posts about winning combined-arms builds, I decided to return to that style for my first time since 3rd ed. It's proven to be a lot of fun (although flying tanks still look cooler and so I stick with them for friendlies).

As for posting lists: Web list critique is pretty useful, I find. It points out vulnerabilities in a pretty concrete way that you can then go and test. I usually make notes on my posted lists with the crits they received, and address them if they prove to be issues after playtesting.

Dakka's taught me a great deal about list-building (particularly about trimming every ounce of fat possible, covering all your battlefield roles, and purchasing multi-role units), and a few things about in-game play. It's also made it clear that humility and direct application in examples (the marks of experience) are what you want to look for from advisors, not the one-upsmanship or rudeness that usually mark noobs who only play internethammer. Table vets are usually super nice if they take the time to comment. Find some who you respect and ask them their opinions on your stuff.