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In the monolith's deep strike rule, it says "because of the sheer mass of the monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives. Instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the monolith."

Does this clause mean that I can deep strike a monolith onto a unit and force it out of cover or off an objective or into line of sight (etc.)?

yes, it's possible. it doesn't say which way to move the models other than the "minimum distance" so the opponent could move them to a side you weren't planning on as long as the distance is the same. so yes, you COULD deepstrike into terrain and force them out but you'd be risking a dangerous terrain test with a very expensive pointswise model.

Some of us (or at least me) disagree and believe that you have to start in a clear spot and the above clause only applies to if you scatter onto models.............

don_mondo wrote:Some of us (or at least me) disagree and believe that you have to start in a clear spot and the above clause only applies to if you scatter onto models.............

So how do you deal with Tyranid Spore Mines?

don_mondo wrote:Some of us (or at least me) disagree and believe that you have to start in a clear spot and the above clause only applies to if you scatter onto models.............

Under the Deep Strike rule:
First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice. etc etc

I'm with don_mondo on this one.

You deep strike in your movement phase, so you can't place it within 1" of the enemy, nor on top of other models. You have to place it on the table, not say where you want it to land, THEN roll the scatter dice. Seems quite clear to me that you can't place it on top of an enemy, then roll a hit. You'd have to scatter on top of them. Basically the Monolith just doesn't mishap if it lands on top of enemies and presses them out of the way. If that's all that the monolith rule says, you still mishap landing on your own units.

A counter point to that is that the unit does not arrive until afterwards.

The restriction is on moving withing an inch (etc.). The unit has not moved until DS is resolved.

/shrug

Editing to add:
Placing the model itself can be problematic, admittedly.
But this is why I asked about Spore Mines previously.

kirsanth wrote:A counter point to that is that the unit does not arrive until afterwards.

The restriction is on moving withing an inch (etc.). The unit has not moved until DS is resolved.

/shrug

Editing to add:
Placing the model itself can be problematic, admittedly.
But this is why I asked about Spore Mines previously.

Hmmm, you're correct, I read through the rules another couple times, yes you can deepstrike as close to a unit as you like, but not on top of it. Normally, you'll mishap if you roll a hit and are within 1", as you can't techically place a model there. Not so with Monolith. I'm corrected, you place the monolith onto the table, roll for scatter, if you hit and are within 1" of the enemy, they have to move the minimum distance to clear it.

So sure, you can deepstrike and place your monolith right next to a enemy unit and force them to move 1", out of terrain or into LOS. I don't see how this is very useful though, but whatever works. Worst case though, you'll scatter over onto their other side, push them further into the terrain and out of LOS and get immobilized doing.

So to reiterate, I'm corrected, you can deepstrike and place the monolith within 1" of the enemy (but not on top of), roll a hit and force them to move. Personally I'd rather just use the monolith's special rule as a means of not having to worry about scattering onto enemy units, and cram it into the middle of em and let it rip next turn.

Edited to add(forgot this part):
My tyranid codex is 4th edition, and I've never played with it, only built a carnifex (which I built & painted) so haven't read the rules for spore mines before. Looking over the rules, they're fired as barrage weapons, if they don't hit their target you place a model where it lands. Under movement it says they drift d6 in a random direction, on a hit the tyranid player chooses. And it's specified that they can (unlike other models) move within 1" of enemies during movement. If it makes contact, it explodes at the end of the phase.

Just remember that the monolith only ignores destroyed results on the mishap table. If you scatter onto enemies and roll a 3-6 on the mishap table, you are still affected by that result.

Spore Mines can be FA choices which have to Deepstrike -- presumably into enemy units.

Dracos wrote:Just remember that the monolith only ignores destroyed results on the mishap table. If you scatter onto enemies and roll a 3-6 on the mishap table, you are still affected by that result.

No?

The rule explicitly states that monoliths do not suffer a mishap, and instead push units out of the way. So, no, they do not take mishap results at all, just like drop pods.

Nachturnus wrote:

Dracos wrote:Just remember that the monolith only ignores destroyed results on the mishap table. If you scatter onto enemies and roll a 3-6 on the mishap table, you are still affected by that result.

No?

The rule explicitly states that monoliths do not suffer a mishap, and instead push units out of the way. So, no, they do not take mishap results at all, just like drop pods.

They say no such thing they were written in the 3rd edition. Did the 3rd edtion or even the 4th have mishaps? No. If you landed on a impassible terrain (ie an enemy) then you were destroyed. Now you have the misshap table which has 3 effects Delayed, misplaced and destroyed. The rule will only function if you roll 1-2 Destroyed.

The codex I have says they are not destroyed for DSing within an inch of enemy models.
Which allows even for destroyed to occur via friendly models -- not to mention the rest of the mishap table.

That said, most people (erroneously)miss/gloss over that and ignore the whole table.

kirsanth wrote:Spore Mines can be FA choices which have to Deepstrike -- presumably into enemy units.

Right, then you place the models when deepstriking, if you end up 1" from an enemy or friendly model you mishap. There's nothing saying they can hit as they deepstrike or that they avoid mishaps. However as it's written, if they're destroyed they explode, so 1-2 on mishap and I'd allow the opponent to explode them "on target" (but this goes for friendly models as well!). 3-4 I place them where I want, including difficult (=dangerous) terrain right next to your units, at which point they may still explode, 5-6 on the table and they're delayed. They'll have to move into the enemy in their next movement phase if they don't mishap. Or the enemy will have to shoot them or assault them to make them explode.

Sounds about right to me anyway.

Spore Mines are allowed to move within an inch of enemies in the movement phase (page 29)which would mean they (presumably) just explode.

Ya. You could do that.
It's kind of a techincality, but it does say you can't land on enemies

kirsanth wrote:Spore Mines are allowed to move within an inch of enemies in the movement phase (page 29)which would mean they (presumably) just explode.

They explode on contact, at the end of the phase. If they mishap, that is worked out instantly. If you want to claim that you can place them in base to base and explode at the end of the phase, I will demand that you roll on the mishap table, if you roll 1-2 they explode instantly as they are removed from play as destroyed. On 3-4 I get to place them whereever I want, AND then they explode at the end of the phase (as they have been in contact), unless they die in dangerous terrain, in which case they explode instantly. On 5-6 they are delayed, but explode at the end of the phase. How would you like to work that out? They're not on the table and can't be taken as casualties?

It's the product of an outdated codex and an incomplete FAQ to close the gaps.

In this case, work it out with your opponent before you play.

I would ignore the whole mishap table as the intention is that the sheer mass of the Monolith allows it to ignore the negative impact of deep-striking. This method is also cleaner than rolling on the table and applying some results while ignoring or reinterpreting others.

utan wrote:It's the product of an outdated codex and an incomplete FAQ to close the gaps.

In this case, work it out with your opponent before you play.

I would ignore the whole mishap table as the intention is that the sheer mass of the Monolith allows it to ignore the negative impact of deep-striking. This method is also cleaner than rolling on the table and applying some results while ignoring or reinterpreting others.

agreed. the rules in the codex allowed you to place the monolith anywhere you wanted without having to worry about being destroyed in deepstrike. RAI would say that continues but RAW would say you only ignore a mishap 1-2. agree with your opponent ahead of time if you intend to do this with your monolith. personally, i'd allow it as i played in 3rd edition and understand the history behind the various rules. as for placing it on top off enemy models, the rules for deepstriking specifically say you can place the template ANYWHERE but you suffer a mishap if within 1" of an enemy model or if you simply can't place a model due to friendlies. that IMO would be an exception to the "can't go within 1" of an enemy model except with tank shock or charge" rule per RAW.

At the risk of further derailment, Spore Mines detonate immediately, see the FAQ here.

sorry, my bad. I just went back and re-read my codex. Monos cannot deepstrike into units, as they simply move the unit out of the way. This means they don't make a mishap roll at all when striking into enemy units, as the units are moved before the monolith is placed.

As it is written RAW, it says that instead of the monolith being destroyed by DSing into a unit, the models of that unit are moved the minimum distance away in order to make them not 1' away from the monolith. As the mono cannot be placed before the models are moved (spacial continuity becoming a problem here), the models must be moved first. Thus, the models are moved, the Mono Strikes in, and does not suffer a mishap because it's not within 1 inch of anything.

However, if you DS a monolith into impassible terrain, you still do mishaps as normal. The rules say nothing about the mono not being destroyed when they suffer mishaps or even when deepstriking generally, they only say that they cannot be destroyed when striking into enemy models. Similarly, if the mono deepstrikes into a pile of infantry within cover, then the mono does not take a mishap, but instead moves the infantry, and then takes the dangerous terrain test.

Skimmers (which a Monolith is) may end their move on Impassible terrain -- it is dangerous.
This only assumes it is physically possible to place them there.

kirsanth wrote:Skimmers (which a Monolith is) may end their move on Impassible terrain -- it is dangerous.
This only assumes it is physically possible to place them there.

They may, but deep striking them there results in a mishap as normal and moving them out of the impassible terrain and onto the battlefield by the closest route, as does deep striking for any other unit. In the BRB it doesn't mention any special rules for deepstriking skimmers, so we must assume that all units deep strike into impassible terrain as normal, regardless of whether they can move there normally during the course of a turn or not. Monos don't have any writing on their template about this, again reinforcing the "normal deepstrike" policy.

So, unless you play a house rule system in which you allow skimmers to DS into impassible terrain, and then take a dangerous terrain test or something, it is not viable to DS monos into impassible terrain. This is a shortcomming of the BRB DS rules in my opinion.

I mostly agree, and have had discussions about this often.
Part of the issue is counting Deepstrike as movement means it follows that the skimmers movement allowance is more specific than the general statement about DS restrictions.

We have had discussions on both sides of it, however.

/shrug