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A MIGHTY WAAGGHH to the MEMBERS of the DAKKA BOARD!

Getting ready for a Big Apoc game and was working through the expansion: Apocolypse: Reload and found an interesting unit:

Ghazghkull's Bully Boyz!

Well, I have enough models for 2 units of the Bully Boyz and have been considering fielding 2 units of Bully Boyz. But then I started to wonder - is this even possible? I mean, this would mean 2 Ghazghkulls on the battlefield.

Now, this IS Apocolypse where anything goes, but wondered what others think about this. A similar scenario could occur if 2 Ork Players were in the same game of Apoc and both brought Ghazghkull. I am sure you can think of other examples.

Should this be disallowed? And if so, in the case where more than one player brings Ghaz, how should it be decided who gets to keep him?

It's allowed but you should still talk it over with your opponent.

I've seen lists with 47 Marbos before.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:It's allowed but you should still talk it over with your opponent.

I've seen lists with 47 Marbos before.

That would be truly obnoxious...

I know Apocalypse is standard 'anything goes' but still, personally I think one of each special character would be plenty!

However, MasterSlowPoke is 100% correct.

DoW

I think that, ruleswise, it comes down to the individual codex...

If the codex has the character listed with a quantity restriction, as Orks do for example, that would be over-ridden by Apocalypse's rule that army list restrictions are ignored.

If the codex has the character restricted by a special rule rather than a straight list quantity restriction (as in Eldar's 'Individual' special rule) then I would say you're stuck with the one.


For consistency and fluff purposes, though, I'd be going with keeping special characters as being unique, and only taking one of each.

Personally, my friends and I agree that you can take multiples of 1 special character, representing another individual entirely. For instance using 2 of Marneus Calgar, the second being the chapter master of(insert completely unknown chapter name here).

RAW, it's allowed.
RAI, I'm not sure.

I would personally have a problem with an opponent attempting to field two of a special character. I would have a much larger problem with one person fielding two Ultramarines Honour Guards.

However, the rulebook seems mostly clear to me. Restrictions on what you are allowed to field from your army lists are overruled.

Both sides of the coin:

Vulkan He'stan. Do you allow multiple players to take Vulkan, so they can have twin-linked meltas?

If you say no, does one Vulkan make every melta in the entire army [all players, multiple races] twin-linked?

I think it's unfair to say that no you can't take multiple, AND no he won't affect anyone but the player that brought him. It's far more unbalancing for one player to spend the points and have everyone benefit than it is to make those who wish to use the guy buy him and gain the benefit.

Sure, it being apocalypse and his rule working with allies you could take all SoB and just Vulkan by himself with no other space marines on the board - but at least you've still spent the 180 or whatever points to get the benefit.

thebetter1 wrote:I would personally have a problem with an opponent attempting to field two of a special character. I would have a much larger problem with one person fielding two Ultramarines Honour Guards.

However, the rulebook seems mostly clear to me. Restrictions on what you are allowed to field from your army lists are overruled.

Ok.... I think I know what you meant but to clarify...

Would you have a problem if I took Marneus Calgar and 2 10-man honour guard squads in an army list?

Cptn. Waaagh! wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:I would personally have a problem with an opponent attempting to field two of a special character. I would have a much larger problem with one person fielding two Ultramarines Honour Guards.

However, the rulebook seems mostly clear to me. Restrictions on what you are allowed to field from your army lists are overruled.

Ok.... I think I know what you meant but to clarify...

Would you have a problem if I took Marneus Calgar and 2 10-man honour guard squads in an army list?

Of course not. It's when people start abusing the strongest formations in the game that you might find it hard to have nice games of Apocalypse. I can totally understand two Masters of the Chapter or something like that, as there are no unique models involved and the assets gained are a bit weak. But if you're doing something like double Honour Guard to get 4 assets, don't expect an opponent.

Vulkan's effect does not apply to other players, as an army's special rules are restricted to that player only. However, if two different players wanted to include him, that is perfectly understandable. It's not like you're conspiring against everyone to form some uber army of death with 20 Nightbringers.

Apoc games are best played semi-cooperatively, and when all the players take a hand in organizing the game, up to and including being active in each others' list-building.

willydstyle wrote:Apoc games are best played semi-cooperatively, and when all the players take a hand in organizing the game, up to and including being active in each others' list-building.

Agreed.

my FLGS hosts fairly large apoc games once every couple of months, and the worst games are the ones where everyone just brings the cheesiest most horribly unbalanced and overpowered units, the best games are the ones where eveyone tries to bring "realistic" composition armies

Bad Game: nothing but stompas and flank march...

Good Game: a Green tide with a pair of stompas as your ranged support

Bad Game: bring Scabeithrax

Good Game: bring anything other than Scabeithrax

Bad Game: 20 Lone Wolves in terminator armor with TH/SS

Good Game: 20 Wolf Guard in terminator armor with TH/SS

willydstyle wrote:Apoc games are best played semi-cooperatively, and when all the players take a hand in organizing the game, up to and including being active in each others' list-building.

Double agreed!!!

I played once against Pedro Kantor and High Marshall Hellbrecht and a shadow sword!! We both had Orks with no Super-Heavies and they wouldn't allow us take two Ghaz's. But we had talked about it before hand and agreed to it. If you had double Ghaz you could call down his super waaaggghhh twice in one game, which is not fair, thats just cheating.

I'm glad its a game and so you can play for fun and set up super characterful lists.

I'd allow two Calgar's play against me, if they didn't abuse the special rules. In apoc you can build super-killy-mega-unfair lists without having to resort to special characters!

I think that one fluff way you could get around 2 of a certain "unique" character would be to say that one is a clone.

Other than that, there's something that "just doesn't seem right" about having 2 of a given unique special character on the table. The game might allow for it, sure, but isn't there just something weird about it?

Then again, maybe one came back in time to join the battle (that's why he's there twice!) and with The Warp, time travel is documented in the fluff.

Thoughts on this?

What about thoughts on 2 players bringing the same unique character when they are on opposing sides?

Agreeing ahead of time is nice and all, but with my crew, it is more than enough work just getting them to show up for the game itself without taking tons of extra time to co-create / revise each others' army lists together. Plus it does take all the mystery out of it, although I agree that with Apoc, that's less of an issue.

Or "counts as".

"counts as" is good and all, but what if they're using all the special rules twice also? Then it gets tough.

Some races don't have many special characters, so its even tougher when they are allied with the same race for an apoc battle. Thats why diversity always wins!!

So I double-checked the Apoc book and near the start, in the section where it describes how to "choose armies" (section 1) Jervis goes on and on about how you should just bring your whole collection. "People think I don't really mean it, but I do. Just bring your whole collection! You don't have to bring your broken landraider if you don't want to, but if you do want to, go ahead, BRING EVERYTHING YOU OWN. Even if you didn't paint it or if it isn't any good in battle, BRING IT. BRING IT ALL! Unless it's made by a competitor of GW, then don't bring it - that is never even remotely allowed."

JK on the last part, but you get the idea.

With "counts-as" it specifies that you basically need opponent's permission. But re: duplicates of otherwise unique miniatures, it seems to suggest that you can and should definitely bring it and play it as such.

At least, that's what I think I am seeing.

Solorg wrote:With "counts-as" it specifies that you basically need opponent's permission.

I don't think that is true in the case of Special Characters. IIRC the SM codex specifically addresses this and says "Don't worry, you can use Shrike in your own Chapter so long as you keep him the same and tell your opponent who he represents."

I don't think you need to ask permission to not paint Marneus blue.

Rest of what you said makes sense, though, since I think the whole idea behind Apocalypse is that it's a big FFA. Even if I don't like it!

DoW