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Alright, so I need a clarification on EXACTLY how feel no pain works. Bare in mind, I'm looking at this in a few very particular perspectives. I have a few instances where it just makes no sense to me, or why its a big deal, i guess. First question, say i fire a krak missile against a plague marine. He has feel no pain, but the missile is AP 3, so it denies an armor save. In that case, does it also deny Feel no Pain? I have the rulebook, but my buddy and argued it back and forth for 10 minutes in a match, and found no resolution. He states that in the rules it specifies that you need ap1 and ap2 to deny it, and in the same passage, i quote it as "wound against which no armour save can ever be taken" (pg 75). How does it work?

Another example, chaos daemons plague barer. They have a 5++ as an armor save. In close quarters, do they get to make a Feel no Pain roll? My question is because since it appears they dont have an actual armor save, do they get to reroll for it? Or is there armor, for example, count as a 5+ against normal wounds and 5++ against power weapons/ ap5 and whatnot? Continued in that line of thought, what happens when it gets hit w/ standard bolter fire? AP5 denies armor save, so does it deny feel no pain? I guess, that harps back to my first question?

I was just wondering, because i was looking up Loken's Left 4 Dead 40k interpretation, and all standard zombies have feel no pain, but no armor save. in that case, do they get a feel no pain roll, when they have NO ARMOR, so no save could ever be taken in the first place. Sorry for the lengthy post, but i really want to know so i dont get boned in a tournament or by my friend again (i conceded, because i just really wanted to play.) thanks for the time guys, its much much appreciated!

P75:
This ability cannot be used against wounds from weapons
that inflict instant death (by having a high enough Strength
or a special rule to that effect; even if the model is an
eternal warrior). Neither can it be used against wounds
from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any
other wound against which no armour save can ever be
taken (like wounds from power fists, Dreadnought close
combat weapons, rending weapons that roll a 6, Perils
of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain tests, etc).

FNP is only denied by instant death wounds, and wounds from sources which always deny armor saves.

The rule does not say 'wounds against which the model cannot use his armor save', it says 'wounds against which no armor save can ever be taken' and then lists several examples of attacks that deal wounds completely unsavable by any armor value ever and no examples of wounds that could possibly be saved against with armor.

Fair enough, i quoted the same passage, fyi. Regardless, why is ap3 any different than ap2 or ap1 against a 3+ armor save?

Topher21 wrote:Fair enough, i quoted the same passage, fyi. Regardless, why is ap3 any different than ap2 or ap1 against a 3+ armor save?

You cannot have a save better than 2+, thus AP 1 and 2 wounds are wounds against which no armor save can ever be taken.
That and they're specifically included in the rule.

A 2+ model could take an armor save against an AP 3 shot, making all AP 3 shots ineligible for denying FNP against any target unless they inflict instant death.

Topher21 wrote:Fair enough, i quoted the same passage, fyi. Regardless, why is ap3 any different than ap2 or ap1 against a 3+ armor save?

Its like a bonus thing , so really strong weapons dont get nerfed too badly from FNP

Alright, i see what you mean. Putting it in the 2+ vs. ap3 made it make more sense. It means in the general sense of any, like ever on any unit, not THAT particular unit in that instance. I guess i was thinking too small. thanks for the clarification guys!

Topher21 wrote:Alright, i see what you mean. Putting it in the 2+ vs. ap3 made it make more sense. It means in the general sense of any, like ever on any unit, not THAT particular unit in that instance. I guess i was thinking too small. thanks for the clarification guys!

No problem, I've seen the rule questioned a few times.
Sorry if the first response was a bit curt, I half copied it from another thread from a week or two ago. Glad the example fleshed it out for you.

Topher21 - however if you fired a marine Krak Missile at the plague marines they would NOT get FNP, as S8 causes ID - they are toughness 4(5) so the lower value is used for ID purposes.

If it was a S6 guard Krak then they would get FNP.

For everything else FNP doesn't catch: There is Cover saves

Thanks nosferatu! I probably should have read a bit more. That would have made all the difference. (i play space wolves, so i have str8 kraks). Still, FNP seems, well, ridiculous. But again, thanks for all the clarification guys. I will definitely be more prepared next time i take on CSM or a ravenwing army.

Well, FNP has been 'balanced' with 5th edition. It was crazy in 4th edition.

Sanctjud wrote:For everything else FNP doesn't catch: There is Cover saves

I think my buddy deathstrike missile would like to have a word with you.

Well... a Deathstrike missile on PM's is a bit overkill.
Certainly gets it done, but yea...overkill.

If theyre taking an objective late int he game, it is just sensible application of force

Just remember to not post whole rules, just page references to them

Actually if your posting the rules for a clarification or to prove a point on it, its perfectly fine to post it. But posting it because someone wants the rule is when its bad.

Gorkamorka wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:For everything else FNP doesn't catch: There is Cover saves

I think my buddy deathstrike missile would like to have a word with you.

You let him get off a Deathstrike?

It's ok, I brought a chart!

FNP vs AP - = Yes
FNP vs AP 6 = Yes
FNP vs AP 5 = Yes
FNP vs AP 4 = Yes
FNP vs AP 3 = Yes
FNP vs AP 2 = No
FNP vs AP 1 = No
FNP vs Tx2 = No
FNP vs Strength (Destroyer) = No
FNP vs Power weapons/fists/klaws = No
FNP vs No retreat = Yes
FNP vs Gets Hot = Yes
FNP vs Perils of the warp = No
FNP vs Demon Weapon rolls of 1 = No
FNP vs Breath of Chaos = No
FNP vs Dangerous Terrain = No
FNP vs Weapons that "do not allow armor saves to be taken against" = No


Did I miss any?

FNP vs "Removed From Game" = No (SA, JoWW)

MasterSlowPoke wrote:FNP vs "Removed From Game" = No (SA, JoWW)

Well FNP only works against wounds, so hopefully that was inherintly obvious. But you never know.

You'd be surprised.