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I think he can as he can join snikrot and come from the enemy side of the table. So why not FNP too?

If i recall correctly doks tools give the unit FNP so as soon as he's part of the unit he also gets FNP.

Tri wrote:If i recall correctly doks tools give the unit FNP so as soon as he's part of the unit he also gets FNP.

Indeed. However, a controversial interpretation would be that this does not apply in close combat because ICs become separate units during the crucial procedures.

In general, following the INAT FAQ, any IC receives FNP from a painboy (or mad doc) if they join the unit.

Kaltak wrote:I think he can as he can join snikrot and come from the enemy side of the table. So why not FNP too?

It's an odd thing to justify it with. FNP is granted to all in the unit, yes, but the INAT FAQs ruled against ICs such as Ghazzy from getting Ambush in joining the unit. For the reason that "unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character". They deem that Snikrot's rules for his squad are not conferred upon ICs that have joined it. From what i've read, very few people play that Thraka can use Ambush.

The general rule is IC's can get special rules granted by a model's wargear, but not from special rules granted by models.

Ridcully wrote:

Kaltak wrote:I think he can as he can join snikrot and come from the enemy side of the table. So why not FNP too?

It's an odd thing to justify it with. FNP is granted to all in the unit, yes, but the INAT FAQs ruled against ICs such as Ghazzy from getting Ambush in joining the unit. For the reason that "unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character". They deem that Snikrot's rules for his squad are not conferred upon ICs that have joined it. From what i've read, very few people play that Thraka can use Ambush.

That's a completely arbitrary line to draw - look at the wording of the rules. They're exactly the same.

When Snikrot and his unit blah blah blah

He confers the Feel No Pain ability to his unit

I'm not seeing the distinction here. It's one or the other, you don't pick and choose because some parts are "unfluffy" or whatever.

grankobot wrote:

Ridcully wrote:

Kaltak wrote:I think he can as he can join snikrot and come from the enemy side of the table. So why not FNP too?

It's an odd thing to justify it with. FNP is granted to all in the unit, yes, but the INAT FAQs ruled against ICs such as Ghazzy from getting Ambush in joining the unit. For the reason that "unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character". They deem that Snikrot's rules for his squad are not conferred upon ICs that have joined it. From what i've read, very few people play that Thraka can use Ambush.

That's a completely arbitrary line to draw - look at the wording of the rules. They're exactly the same.

When Snikrot and his unit blah blah blah

He confers the Feel No Pain ability to his unit

I'm not seeing the distinction here. It's one or the other, you don't pick and choose because some parts are "unfluffy" or whatever.

Being fair i personally do feel that both effect the unit (including joined IC) ...

The INAT does its best to shore up GW rules but in order to do this they often change the rules to their personal beliefs. 90% of the time what they do makes the game better.

Being fair i personally do feel that both effect the unit (including joined IC) ...

I think it's pretty clear that it should be neither. Special rules aren't conferred upon joining characters unless specifically mentioned - period.

The INAT does its best to shore up GW rules but in order to do this they often change the rules to their personal beliefs. 90% of the time what they do makes the game better according to the authors.

Deliberately changing the rules for a competitive environment is bull. See the stores that arbitrarily decided that deffrollas could ram vehicles, vs the stores that didn't. Which ones sent ork players to the finals and which ones didn't? If it's not universal, it shouldn't be in tournaments at all. If it's not in a GW sanctioned article, it won't be universal.

It's a fine line between rules changes "for clarification" and made up junk like the imaginary distinction between snikrot and painboyz.

grankobot wrote:

Being fair i personally do feel that both effect the unit (including joined IC) ...

I think it's pretty clear that it should be neither. Special rules aren't conferred upon joining characters unless specifically mentioned - period.

The INAT does its best to shore up GW rules but in order to do this they often change the rules to their personal beliefs. 90% of the time what they do makes the game better according to the authors.

Deliberately changing the rules for a competitive environment is bull. See the stores that arbitrarily decided that deffrollas could ram vehicles, vs the stores that didn't. Which ones sent ork players to the finals and which ones didn't? If it's not universal, it shouldn't be in tournaments at all. If it's not in a GW sanctioned article, it won't be universal.

It's a fine line between rules changes "for clarification" and made up junk like the imaginary distinction between snikrot and painboyz.

Its one of the problems with codices written in an earlier version of 40k. At least in the case of Doks toolz its clear what unit means otherwise you might as well give mad dok feel no pain as the unit could never benefit.

grankobot wrote:I think it's pretty clear that it should be neither. Special rules aren't conferred upon joining characters unless specifically mentioned - period.

"and his unit" specifically includes any attached ICs, please read the rules on attaching ICs to units - they become a part of the unit in all respects.

This is also not a unit special rule but wargear special rule, so is not directly covered by the IC joining rules in anyc ase.

For better or worse, GW has chosen to keep the 40K ruleset fast and loose. Where the rules are unclear, counter-intuitive or can be read several ways, we are left to "make da call". In these situations, I have to go with the RAI and consider the fluff.

A painboy with an innate set of medical skills and special equipment can patch up anyone in his unit. A patient does not need special abilities to be treated by a doctor.

However, Snikrot's ambush tactic enhances the already-existing outflank ability of the kommandos. Having a giant, mega-armored monster with no such ability tagging along would certainly foil the kommandos attempts at stealth. Ghazzy just doesn't have the ability to be subtle.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

"and his unit" specifically includes any attached ICs, please read the rules on attaching ICs to units - they become a part of the unit in all respects.

There's no point in the IC section that states that he becomes a part of the unit "in all respects." Here's a list of what an IC joining a unit explicitly covers:

Unit coherency
Who counts as moving for the purposes of shooting + movement restrictions (no characters going 12" and everyone else 6" for instance)
When the character may join or leave
Going to ground
Targeting in shooting
Targeting in CC
Whose LD to use

It also specifically disallows the character from hijacking any unit specific special rules. Like FNP, for instance.

Units are defined on page 3. Infantry squads are units. ICs are units. If an IC joins an infantry squad, they're still 2 units but with the above rules. He's not part of the unit unless he's taken as the same force org slot.

Here's another example.

Harker's squad of veterans has move through cover, stealth, and infiltrate. The wording on this rule is the same as the above issue. So would you let me attach an infiltrating, stealthy GK hero?

If so, we should play sometime.

The Infiltrate USR is lost by joining an IC. The issue is that Snikrot's Ambush, which is not an USR and not subject to their rules, does not say it is lost by a joining IC.

Correct in that if a unit has FNP, it is not conferred to a character joining the unit. So a Chaos Lord joinging Plauge marines does not get FNP.

In the case of an orc painboy, or Mad Doc, it is they who confer the special rule on the unit, and and IC that are part of the unit. Not the unit giving the rule to the IC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

grankobot wrote:
Here's another example.

Harker's squad of veterans has move through cover, stealth, and infiltrate. The wording on this rule is the same as the above issue. So would you let me attach an infiltrating, stealthy GK hero?

If so, we should play sometime.

Bad Example. Go review the rules for Harker: "Harker and his squad....." vs. the rules for painboyz "..confers FNP on his unit".

infiltrate happens with no way of attaching an IC. For the IC to be part of the unit he must be deployed within 2" but without infiltrate he cannot move within 2". He also is deployed first so could never join them.

Incidentally Stealth, though never conferred to any one, does automatically boost the units cover save by +1.

Grankobot - so "joining a unit" doesnt mean "join", as in combine into a single entity, as far as you are concerned? Also you missed out the Assaults section - possibly as it contradicts your point?

If a unit that has been joined by an independent character assaults into close combat, the character assaults too, as it is part of the unit

So, an IC is part of the unit - not a seperate unit at all. You are incorrect in stating there are still two units - this is only true in close combat when directing attacks.

FNP from wargear that specifies "his unit" confers to an attached IC, as does Ambush - it is a rules change within INAT and inconistent with their FNP ruling that they disallow it.

Snikrot's ambush is not conferring a special rule onto his unit, or anyone. It is his special rule alone, and simply allows the entire unit he is with to perform an action because he is there, without granting them any new rules individually or as a unit.
That's how I remember reading it, I don't have the codex in front of me.

How does infiltrate read? I assume it is something like 'units with this rule can enter by...', which a given IC could disallow the unit from using as he does not personally have or gain the rule so part of the unit would not have it.
Snikrot says 'my unit gets to do this, because of my rule', not 'my unit has or is getting a rule that lets them do this' which would disqualify bringing an IC along as he does not have/gain the rule. iirc.

grankobot wrote:

Ridcully wrote:

Kaltak wrote:I think he can as he can join snikrot and come from the enemy side of the table. So why not FNP too?

It's an odd thing to justify it with. FNP is granted to all in the unit, yes, but the INAT FAQs ruled against ICs such as Ghazzy from getting Ambush in joining the unit. For the reason that "unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character". They deem that Snikrot's rules for his squad are not conferred upon ICs that have joined it. From what i've read, very few people play that Thraka can use Ambush.

That's a completely arbitrary line to draw - look at the wording of the rules. They're exactly the same.

When Snikrot and his unit blah blah blah

He confers the Feel No Pain ability to his unit

I'm not seeing the distinction here. It's one or the other, you don't pick and choose because some parts are "unfluffy" or whatever.

I didn't suggest that they were different. I was pointing out that justifying the functionality of one with the other isn't taking into account that the majority of people don't allow the first to function. None of my post was opinion based.

Utan wrote:
A painboy with an innate set of medical skills and special equipment can patch up anyone in his unit. A patient does not need special abilities to be treated by a doctor.

However, Snikrot's ambush tactic enhances the already-existing outflank ability of the kommandos. Having a giant, mega-armored monster with no such ability tagging along would certainly foil the kommandos attempts at stealth. Ghazzy just doesn't have the ability to be subtle

I have to agree, this makes the most sence to me.

Kaltak wrote:

Utan wrote:
A painboy with an innate set of medical skills and special equipment can patch up anyone in his unit. A patient does not need special abilities to be treated by a doctor.

However, Snikrot's ambush tactic enhances the already-existing outflank ability of the kommandos. Having a giant, mega-armored monster with no such ability tagging along would certainly foil the kommandos attempts at stealth. Ghazzy just doesn't have the ability to be subtle

I have to agree, this makes the most sence to me.

As do I. When the codex is talking about Snikrots unit, it is OBVIOUSLY talking about the kommandos that are with him. And since they have the infiltrate rule, its obviously just making that rule better. Now attaching an IC to Snikrots unit will take away the use of the infiltrait rule, because the IC wont have it. And obviously that makes sense with the rule book.
BUT its totally different with a painboy, as paying the points for a painboy, he is granting the FNP to any unit he is in. So attaching an IC to a unit with a Painboy, makes sense that NOW the IC gets the FNP rule, as the painboy grants this ability to any in the unit.

Ridcully wrote:

Kaltak wrote:I think he can as he can join snikrot and come from the enemy side of the table. So why not FNP too?

It's an odd thing to justify it with. FNP is granted to all in the unit, yes, but the INAT FAQs ruled against ICs such as Ghazzy from getting Ambush in joining the unit. For the reason that "unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character". They deem that Snikrot's rules for his squad are not conferred upon ICs that have joined it. From what i've read, very few people play that Thraka can use Ambush.

I agree with you, it is an odd inconsistency... and it Bothers me.

According to RAW both should work, the pain boy giving FNP to his unit (including any attached IC) and snikrot giving ambush to his unit (including any attached character). A lot of people are uncomfortable playing the ambush rule that way because of the problem created when an unusual IC is brought into snikrot's squad. Thraka or a boss with a klaw on a bike being the main problems. It seems too strong, and very unrealistic. Of course, GW is full of RAW situations that are unrealistic so that really shouldnt be a surprise.

And the unbalanced part isnt quite as big of a factor, if one looks at the GW faq. IC that are attached to a unit cannot leave that unit the turn that they deploy onto the table, so the warboss on the bike is stuck with snikrot and his boys for a turn. And so is thraka, plus he is clanking around in mega armor so the whole unit is going to be moving a bit slowly.

INAT is a set of rules to try and make large tournements run more smoothly, they dont claim to be the perfect interpreter of the BRB.


Sliggoth

KingCracker wrote:

Kaltak wrote:

Utan wrote:
However, Snikrot's ambush tactic enhances the already-existing outflank ability of the kommandos.

I have to agree, this makes the most sence to me.

As do I. When the codex is talking about Snikrots unit, it is OBVIOUSLY talking about the kommandos that are with him. And since they have the infiltrate rule, its obviously just making that rule better. Now attaching an IC to Snikrots unit will take away the use of the infiltrait rule, because the IC wont have it. And obviously that makes sense with the rule book.

I'm really not seeing this connection at all, much less 'OBVIOUSLY'.
Ambush is entirely seperate from outflank or infiltrate and never mentions either, much less requiring them to function. Nor does it specifiy Kommandos+Snikrot only, it specifies the 'unit'.

Saying that it is 'enchancing the outflank ability' or 'improving the infiltrate rule' is entirely false.

And Im not surprised you completely disagree with me GorkaMorka. I could say that its air you breathe, and some how you would find that to be untrue.

KingCracker wrote:And Im not surprised you completely disagree with me GorkaMorka. I could say that its air you breathe, and some how you would find that to be untrue.

Your personal opinion of me is irrelevant. You're entirely wrong in stating that Ambush somehow affects or requires the infiltrate USR, unless you have text that states otherwise.

I never said this is concrete, is is this way because it is this way. Snikrot can ONLY be put into a squad of kommandos, so assuming that it has an effect on infiltrate is really a logical step.
I was just using that as my reasoning for why IC should not use his ambush rule but can benefit from a painboy FNP.
I guess from now on, to make sure your happy, Ill get the GW legal team to go over my words, so they are as iron clad as GW rules. All for you GorkaMorka!

KingCracker wrote:I never said this is concrete, is is this way because it is this way. Snikrot can ONLY be put into a squad of kommandos, so assuming that it has an effect on infiltrate is really a logical step.

Assuming things that are easily demonstratable as not true is not a good basis for a logical opinion. Reading into the intent of the rules is one thing, stating things that the rules explicitly do not support is another entirely.

Ambush does not affect or reference infiltrate ever, at all. Ambush does not specify that it only applies to Kommandos and Snikrot at all, ever. The rules simply do not say these things.
Stating or supporting these assertions or basing opinions on them as though they were true is just wrong, and is misleading to readers.

Are you going to add something to threads instead of surf for ones I posted in and bash anything I say? It would be a nice change of pace. I was simply adding my opinion on why I think said rule does or does not work. I wasnt throwing a lure out for you to explain why anything I say is not worthy of threads. Im pretty sure I never stepped on your toes to warrant the BS Ive been catching from you lately. So Id appreciate if you would stop the gak

Shockingly (...) this thread is generating a lot of Mod Alerts.

Mod Alerts on my birthday?

No way!

Seriously, play nice, or threads get locked, users get warnings, some get suspensions, etc.

Happy Birthday Alpharius!

@Kingcracker: Snikrot's rule says "Snikrot and his unit." An IC may be attached to a unit held in reserve (like Snikrot's unit), at which point it becomes part of the unit. Snikrot then tries to arrive by a non-normal means. He's not outflanking or DSing, so the attached IC doesn't activate either prohibition. He's using Ambush!, so you follow the Ambush! rule without referring to infiltrate, outflank, or any of the other USR's.

And to everyone saying, "it wouldn't make sense if...", the 40K ruleset makes little sense at times. A logical, real-world based argument has no place, unfortunately, in a 40K rules discussion. See Tenets of You Make Da Call.