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So I thought I'd stop pussying around and try and make a a tough list. First, things I currently own: Wave serpent twin bright lance (I know I know BL is bad can change it if neccessary) jetbike (was going to be a farseer on a bike dunno what I want to do with it.) 10 DA.

I play at 1500 points. I regularly play against IG, hordeish Orks, Space wolves. I would like to make this army a Tournament army IE actually competitive.



EDIT LIST AMENDED SEE 3RD POST!



Questions is bladestorm really worth it compared to more vehicles (I have gone with hiding in the tank option) ? Do I need seer council on bikes (not really a fan but if they are critical I'll probably take em) How terrible is this list?

HQ

Eldrad -210 In the other mech thread he sounded pretty darn useful. Dunno which vehicle to transport him in DAs? was originally gonna have autarch/farseer on jetbike..

ELITES

5 Fire Dragons - 80

Serpent -100
Shuriken Cannon, I figure these are gonna get shot at hardcore so make em cheap and bring two.

5 Fire Dragons -80

Serpent -100
Shuriken Cannon, Spirit stones had 10 points left over so on go spirit stones.


TROOPS


5 DA - 60

Serpent - 115
Scatter Lasers,

5 DA -60

Serpent - 115
Scatter Lasers,

5 DA -60

Serpent -135 Eldrad goes here?
Bright Lance


HEAVY SUPPORT

Fire Prism -125 I was gonna chuck holo fields here but I couldn't find the points. 3 naked is better then 2 with holo fields no?
Spirit Stones,

Fire Prism -125
Spirit Stones,

Fire Prism -125
Spirit Stones,

1500

So rip it to pieces..

Very similar to most competitive lists out there.

Take stones off of Prisms, they are useless if shaken so who cares if they are stunned. If the enemy is in CC range of the prisms to worry about moving then you have bigger issues then them going kaboom. No holos on Prisms, almost 50% increase in price is not worth their survivability.

Eldrad only one question.. why? You have nothing that needs guide (that can get hit by it), fortune will help if full out, Doom is nice, Mindwar and Storm are situational. For 210pts you could take 2 specific rolled Farseers.

Fire Dragon Serpents look good, you could take the stones from prisms and pull them on these since they will be up in the enemy face.

BL shoudn't be needed, you have Prisms for 14FSA. Take EMLs on 2 of the DA serpents instead. Need Stones on those DA serpents, getting stunned in the final rounds of the game could mean the difference between a win and a loss.

Okay so taking the above advice I have a list that looks like this. Thankyou for the Advice BTW. Anymore thoughts?


HQ

Farseer -93
Doom, RoW Singing Spear Following advice I take these over eldrad.. I like them more.. A sword and a shield.

Farseer - 95
Fortune, RoW

ELITES

5 Fire Dragons - 80

Serpent -110
Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones I figure these are gonna get shot at hardcore so make em cheap and bring two.

5 Fire Dragons -80

Serpent -110
Shuriken Cannon, Spirit stones


TROOPS


5 DA - 60

Serpent 145
EML, Stones, Star Engines Engines Maybe useful for cheeky last turn contesting etc?

5 DA - 60

Serpent 130
EML, Stones

5 DA - 60

Serpent 130
EML, Stones


HEAVY SUPPORT

Fire Prism -115


Fire Prism -115


Fire Prism -115


1498

Looks good to me, Star Engines is a personal choice thing. I'd put the Farseers in your two non Star engine Serpents. First Round stay in reseave if going second, if going first deploy your Fortune serpent 6" from one Fire dragon serpent. Fortune up the dragon's serpent and move full out. DA EML units stay at range with EML, Doom serpent get in just enough range to pop doom off on your target of choice.

Fire dragons go after the big nasties.

EML krak transports first, then heavy stuff.

Prism pop heavies, if you catch an SM unit in the open introduce them to Mr S6 AP3 Large Blast.

Thanx for the advice BlueDagger.

Its not bad but don't expect too much.
You have 5+3 heavy skimmers, that's a lot at the 1500 pt level.
But Eldar has some glaring weaknesses in the 5th ed, like
random game length, low toughness of troops, and skimmer nerfing.

Yes Eldar have some weakness.

In my own limited experience I would say IG Mech City type army, with oodles of cheap armor and some hydras for extra pain would give me plenty of trouble. I can also see that it would have trouble with Storm Shield termies (well killing them). But it has some mobility. It has some shooting. I think it has a good chance. But this is all in my mind I haven't played eldar in 5th ed.

What do you think would give it fits wustenfex? Is there any way to improve it?

Well, that's really difficult these days to configure a competitive Eldar army.
In the German GT final, the best Eldar army was placed 22nd. But it was at a bigger pt level.

Your 8 skimmers allow you to implement Lanchester's law and this a great benefit.
But in order to keep your army in reserve, I'd replace the 2nd Farseer by an Autarch with fusion gun.
By the way, two times RoW is not necessary.

Its Runes of witnessing.. not warding.

Autarch eh well I'll have to keep that in mind.

Just for my own information does having 2 autarchs stack the reserve dice to +2? EDIT just checked FAQ they can nevermind this question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I was thinking (thanx to Wuestenfux) and I thought of this List. How important are Spirit stones for vehicles and how important are farseers? In place of those things I have added a autarch with a fusion gun and managed to fit another serpent in with scatter laser plus a min DA unit.

Thoughts on this list? Is it better then the one in the 3rd post?

HQ

Autarch -80
Fusion Gun

ELITES

5 Fire Dragons - 80

Serpent -100
Shuriken Cannon,

5 Fire Dragons -80

Serpent -100
Shuriken Cannon,


TROOPS


5 DA - 60

Serpent 120
EML,

5 DA - 60

Serpent 120
EML,

5 DA - 60

Serpent 120
EML,

5 DA - 60

Serpent 115
Scatter L

HEAVY SUPPORT

Fire Prism -115


Fire Prism -115


Fire Prism -115


1500

Thoughts?

Well, this last list does have the advantage of flooding the table with a LOT of fast armor.

Usually a farseer is one of the lynchpins for an eldar army, but your army is by no means a normal one. You have one of the smallest infantry counts I can imagine for an eldar list ... which might be ok, depending on what you will be facing. But your 3 prisms are going to have a lot of work if you face any kind of horde list.

Spirit stones are very important on the dragon's serpents, since those will be needing to move in close and drop off their armor busting troops. The rest of the serpents and prisms can go naked with a fairly good chance of success.

Runes of witnessing arent needed on farseers with only one power. Runes of warding on the other hand are the cheapest insurance that the eldar army has. With the amount of truly deadly psychic powers out there now, runes of warding are one of the better reasons to take a farseer in the first place Nothing more amusing than seeing an IG psychic battle squad blow a roll and have their overseer "save" d3 of the psychers. (unless its watching a lash prince give himself a wound...hmmm)


This list is very fragile. When it fails its going to fail very badly. There just isnt any second threat here, you are entirely relying on your opponent having trouble with av12 fast armor. And you dont have enough firepower to actually kill much if the need arises. Your 240 points invested in DA are only there to make scoring units, there is no real way for them to be useful in the game other than trying to grab objectives. There is no real core here.





If it suits your style this list has a lot of speed and can dance around a good bit. But it is going to have trouble landing any solid punches, and once your opponent realises how much of your firepower is in the 3 prisms things could get dicey.



Sliggoth

RoWitnessing is not a good investment, you'll want to change those to RoWarding. 2x RoWarding is worth the cost as if you go up against dual lash that sole Farseer will have a 13ft bullseye on his serpent.

As far as the list being fragile I'd have to agree that the 5serpents per DA makes them a little weak, but the true strength of those units comes from the TL EML. Stay a long range and pop off S8 shots to pop open the enemy transports, once they are out of the rhino/chimera/devilfish/serpent/ etc they are not only vulnerable tto fire but they are now competing against you skimmer speed while on foot.

It may not be a 1st place GT winner but it'll give local tournies a run I believe.

Eldrad doesn't seem to be doing this list any favors. A cheap Runes of Warding Doomseer would be just as effective and also free up some points for maybe some war walkers, vypers, snipers, or an autarch.

Edit:

Your last list looks a little better, but a Runes of Warding seer will be invaluable, especially against Space Wolves Murderous Hurricane power. It's also good insurance against other Eldar, and Lash Chaos, which even though you are meched up, there will be that one instant where you have a squad disembarked that the Lash player will take full advantage of at a crucial moment.

I also am not a fan of Missile Launchers on Wave serpents. I say leave them cheap with the turret Shuri-cannons, or go with one or two bright lances to add to the Prism's fire. Also, the spirit stones make the tanks able to still "tank shock" or hide even when stunned. Tank shock with that many vehicles is very effective, and also messes with your opponent's mind. If you drop a couple of missile launchers, you should be able to fit stones on just about everything.

I like the last list a lot more than the others.

I would put double shuricannon on all the serpents and forget about EML or stones (as you have already done).

You could also include a few vypers (2 or 3) with double shuricannon if you take out one serpent with DA.

Double shuricannons are really more effective against AV11 vehicles and against infantry S6 is priceless.

So I did a huge Mathhammer on the different heavies choices that I was goign to post here, but I got a little carried away with it so I made a different thread.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/268773.page#1168548

Basically comes down to if you are trying to kill vehicles AV10-11 and range isn't an issue then Dual S cannons are indeed your best bet. If fighting AV 12-13 or AV 12 heavy (Eldar, Tau, D Eldar) then EML will be your best bet. If your fighting AV 14 then BL of course is your best bet. Fire Prisms aren't taken into account and this is purely vs Vehicles.

Personally, I like Stones on my vehicles, especially late game. A mech list is pretty one dimensional, and relies on mobility to survive in a lot of games. Being able to travel in a pack and focus fire on specific targets is essential to success, IMO. That means staying on the move to keep up with the pack.

Prisms = Great Ramming potential + objective contesting + tank shock. And opponents really won't want to keep shooting at them once the cannon is gone.

WaveSerpents being able to get out of the way and continue to be a threat to contest late game, means opponents will have to keep firing at it. If you've done a good job with target selection, you can probably be sure to prevent a lot of danger to them late.

I like the double Autarch in this kind of list, because it allows you to try and wait out a Podding/DS army, or come on together to out manuever a infantry horde.

Later,
WR

Wow thanks for all the inputs guys. Im gonna digest all this Info and check out blue daggers thread and come back with an amended list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So What I have taken is that Spirit stones are worth it. a Farseer is important for RoWarding for psychic defense and of course powers. And the EML has a 2.78% chance to immobilize or better a land raider :(.. Also the list killing power is heavily tied to the Prisms. Now I thought a bit about EML but what has me coming back to them is the range. 48inches combined with the speed of the WS means a noob like me has a better chance of staying out of trouble. I think an autarch is a good bet also.. just for the extra help should I arrive via reserves. When I get all this stuff I will of course alternate lists and may run double farseers or this and see what is more effective for me. Thanx for all the input. Especially blue dagger.



HQ

Autarch -80
Fusion Gun


Farseer - 100
Fortune, RoWarding

ELITES

5 Fire Dragons - 80

Serpent -110
Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

5 Fire Dragons -80

Serpent -110
Shuriken Cannon, Spirit stones


TROOPS


5 DA - 60

Serpent 145
EML, Stones, Star Engines

5 DA - 60

Serpent 130
EML, Stones

5 DA - 60

Serpent 130
EML, Stones


HEAVY SUPPORT

Fire Prism -115


Fire Prism -115


Fire Prism -115


1490 theres 10 points, 25 if I drop the star engines left over Ill probably just chuck stones on a prism.

Really, Stones are only useful one time every 6 (Penetrating or not). If you want to put them, ok, but at this point level, I really think it's not worthy. And in any case, better than a second shuricannon.

As Blue Dagger pointed, double Shuricannons are really better against AV10-11. If you are worried about Land Raiders, you still have the Fire Dragons and the Prisms. And against AV12, you still have a lot of chances of annoying them with the double Shuricannon and your mobility...

I have played my Serpents with EML and with double cannons, and I have not doubt about double cannons being better. Just play a few games trying both options, and tell us how that work =)

Star Engines depending on how the rules are interpreted can be completely worthless: It allows you move instead of shooting. If you move at maximum speed, you cannot fire, so you cannot use Star Engines at all... =(

At 1500, Farseer+Autarch seems pretty expensive to me. If you really want to expend that ammount of points, why don't you try Eldrad instead? 2 Fortunes plus Guide or Doom seems bettter than one Fortune and +1 on reserve rolls...

3 Vypers with double cannon are "only" 180 points and can help you a lot. I would consider it seriously.

Also, putting a shuricannon on those Prism is a good idea, because you can still use them to hunt vehicles or infantry after you loose your main weapon...

Oh, and I almost forgot: If you really want to use EML on your serpents, a shuricannon is still a great buy, because if you are shooting infantry, you can shoot your EML on S4 (defensive weapon) and your suricannon (S6: Main weapon) and move 12'

So I thought I d see what a list using Ky'alur advice would look like. Also what you say about star engines is disturbing.

HQ

Autarch -80
Fusion Gun

ELITES

5 Fire Dragons - 80

Serpent -110
Shuriken Cannon, USC (under-slung shuriken cannon)

5 Fire Dragons -80

Serpent -110
Shuriken Cannon,USC


TROOPS


5 DA - 60

Serpent 110
SC, USC

5 DA - 60

Serpent 110
SC, USC

5 DA - 60

Serpent 110
SC, USC

FAST ATTACK

Vyper - 60
SC, USC

Vyper - 60
SC, USC

Vyper - 60
SC, USC


HEAVY SUPPORT

Fire Prism -115


Fire Prism -115


Fire Prism -115


1495

Alot more strength six shots.. I think I will have to magnetize my serpant weapons or drive myself crazy in the process. Also I definitely need to play test.

Does anyone mind giving my list a look-over? I'm new on the site, didnt really know how else to get it some views http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/268938.page Be brutally honest

lol

Shaman wrote:So I thought I d see what a list using Ky'alur advice would look like. Also what you say about star engines is disturbing.

HQ

Autarch -80
Fusion Gun

ELITES

5 Fire Dragons - 80

Serpent -110
Shuriken Cannon, USC (under-slung shuriken cannon)

5 Fire Dragons -80

Serpent -110
Shuriken Cannon,USC


TROOPS


5 DA - 60

Serpent 110
SC, USC

5 DA - 60

Serpent 110
SC, USC

5 DA - 60

Serpent 110
SC, USC

FAST ATTACK

Vyper - 60
SC, USC

Vyper - 60
SC, USC

Vyper - 60
SC, USC


HEAVY SUPPORT

Fire Prism -115


Fire Prism -115


Fire Prism -115


1495

Alot more strength six shots.. I think I will have to magnetize my serpant weapons or drive myself crazy in the process. Also I definitely need to play test.

That's exactly the list I play !

Sometimes, I add a few more avengers on the Serpents, take out the vypers, or substitute the Dire Avengers with Storm Guardians with double flamer.

Yeah, you should use magnets, lol

Oh cool..

Anyway all that left is to get some serpents and some magnets.

Thanx for all the advice everyone

Good for weapons and turret http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D201-N52

Good for hole above under slung TL Cata/ Cannon http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D201-N52

Good for magnetized base http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D41-N52

I personal use 31 small, 1 medium, and 2 larger per serpent... but I'm a crazy like that

Seriously Blue dagger your the best.

Those are cheaper then I was expecting.