shadow field v warcythe

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**BIBBI**

After obtaining the dark eldar codex I noticed something I did not know the answer to, if a model with the shadow field is hit by an attack that does not allow invulnerable saves does it get destroyed, the specific rule for the shadow field is "a shadow field provides a 2+ insuperable save, but if the save is ever failed then the field is destroyed "

**Kurgash**

I don't believe so, as it only fails as being rolled for. A warscythe just denies the save. I may be wrong tho but that is how I've always handled it.

**Volkov**

Ya we have run into this one with the callidus assassin and grey knights. If I recall correctly the exact wording is that all saves are ignored including invulnerable or no save of any kind may be taken etc etc. It doesnt say automatically failed, and with that ignoring your save means you dont have a chance to fail it.

**nyyman**

As much as it hurts to say, the Necron Lord with warscythe won't deny the whateverspacedarkhippie's invunerable save, because, as said, it doesn't get to roll and so can't fail

**kirsanth**

This may relate:

INAT wrote:
RB.20B.01 – Q: Is a “failed save” the same thing as
getting no save at all? What about a “failed saving
throw” are these all the same thing?
A: Yes, getting “no save” or having “failed a save” or having
“failed a saving throw”, etc, are all one and the same thing
[clarification].

**Saldiven**

I dunno how much it matters. With his stellar T3, getting into hand to hand with anything wielding a warscythe is just plain bad news for an Archon....

**Tri**

kirsanth wrote:This may relate:

INAT wrote:
RB.20B.01 – Q: Is a “failed save” the same thing as
getting no save at all? What about a “failed saving
throw” are these all the same thing?
A: Yes, getting “no save” or having “failed a save” or having
“failed a saving throw”, etc, are all one and the same thing
[clarification].

I do hate some of the INATs rulings you cannot fail a save if you have no save to take.

**Adamah**

I'd agree that being hit with a warscythe doesn't destroy you're shadow field. you never fail the save because you never take it.

**kirsanth**

I may agree, but would have to read more. But we use the INAT, even when we disagree with parts.

**kill dem stunties**

The inat is almost half rules changes .... i wish people would stop using that rubbish.

**don_mondo**

IIRC, the old 'no save counts as a failed save' bit from GW FAQs was in reference to whether or not a model that got no save could still use a medipack (whihc required a model to fail a save). Hence the INAT call saying the same as GW once did.

Personally, I would not apply that to the Shadow field.

**kirsanth**

kill dem stunties wrote:i wish people would stop using that rubbish.

If tourneys did not, people would not.
As things stand though, having a(n arbitrary) ruling is better than needing to debate all those issues each time someone new shows up for a game. And I enjoy debate.

**Mannahnin**

And as noted, this INAT answer is directly taken from an identical GW FAQ answer, about the old Medipack.

**Tri**

Well roll on new dark eldar codex i say ... in fact if we got a new codex for every race (or at least a 2-3 pages of corrections for each) we wouldn't have so many problems.

**don_mondo**

No argument there, DE could use a new codex to update a good portion of their rules.

**toxic_wisdom**

Provided the number of wounds from the Warscythe is not enough to kill the Archon, simply claim you are using the Archon's normal Armor Save - which you fail of course - but go into the next round of combat ( and maybe others later ) with your SF intact...

**Thor665**

You're actually obligated to take the best save available to you - which would be the Shadowfield in this case.

**Tri**

Thor665 wrote:You're actually obligated to take the best save available to you - which would be the Shadowfield in this case.

er since nether save can be taken how is a 2+ nothing better then a 5+ nothing?

**Thor665**

If one goes by the INAT FAQ that an inability to take a save still constitutes as a failing of the save, you still then have to "make" a save and one would then have to assess which save is better. I submit that the 2++ save you cannot take is a better save then the 5+ or 6+ save you cannot take since it's better both numerically and in the quality level of the save. You argument is that since both saves have an equal chance of success (none) that they have an equal value and can be chosen between by the player?

**Tri**

Thor665 wrote:If one goes by the INAT FAQ that an inability to take a save still constitutes as a failing of the save, you still then have to "make" a save and one would then have to assess which save is better. I submit that the 2++ save you cannot take is a better save then the 5+ or 6+ save you cannot take since it's better both numerically and in the quality level of the save. You argument is that since both saves have an equal chance of success (none) that they have an equal value and can be chosen between by the player?

well that and that fact that taking the 5+ save i would still have the 2+ invulnerable if he lives ... that to me seems the best possible save.

Any way correct me if I'm wrong but if i had a 2+ cover save and 4+ armour and i was hit by a flamer would you expect me to use the cover save? It's the best save i have ... it just happens the weapon ignores it.

**Thor665**

I certainly do not disagree with your second point - it's the same reason you should take an invuln over a regular armor save versus a power weapon. However, this is a different sort of setup. For instance, I've seen many people argue that the "best save" rule doesn't allow you to factor in re-roll percentages to which save is best if one will be re-rolled and one will not.

Your first point - saving the best potential save - doesn't work. Otherwise you could opt to take a Str 4 attack save on your armor in order to ensure you had your Shadowfield for the power fist later. Yeah, it's possible the best strategy - but that doesn't make it the best save. You need to show that either the saves are identical under the rules and thus it allows you to save, or you need to take the "best" one available to you.

**Tri**

Why? By your logic best save is the cover save. Ether you ignore saves that you can't take or you must always use the highest.

**Eight Ball**

Hey, I was going to add something here, but I need a question answered first: What page in the rulebook has the part in it about "Being forced to take the best possible save"?

**kirsanth**

Page 24

**Tri**

Eight Ball wrote:Hey, I was going to add something here, but I need a question answered first: What page in the rulebook has the part in it about "Being forced to take the best possible save"?

page24 "Models with more than one save"
"....But it has the advantage of always using the best available save."

Ya that sound a bit ropey to me as well ... doesn't include things like rerolls.

**Thor665**

I agree, and that's what I'm driving at.

I do not think my logic obligates me to take a non roll 2+ save if a smaller number 5+ save is allowed.

I simply question why if neither roll is allowed what method is used to explain which is better and why. I question the "to save the Shadowfield" logic because the rule doesn't even allow for adjustment for re-rolls or non re-rolls in a save. I submit the following as a way to judge best under 40k rules as I understand them.

Can you take the save versus the wound?
Which save is the highest? (eh, lowest - you get my meaning0

That appears to be it - therefore if you can't take either save why would you be allowed to take the "lesser" save? It seems clear you'd be obligated to take the "better" of the two saves you could not make - which is the Shadowfield.

**toxic_wisdom**

Thor665 wrote:You're actually obligated to take the best save available to you - which would be the Shadowfield in this case.

But aren't wargear/weapons optional ? Just because a model has been equipped with a powerfist, does that mean he has to use it during an assault ?

**Lordhat**

toxic_wisdom wrote:
Thor665 wrote:You're actually obligated to take the best save available to you - which would be the Shadowfield in this case.

But aren't wargear/weapons optional ? Just because a model has been equipped with a powerfist, does that mean he has to use it during an assault ?

Yes, unless he has another special weapon. See the BGB pg. 42 under the heading 'A normal and a special weapon'.

**Ordznik**

Lordhat wrote:
toxic_wisdom wrote:
Thor665 wrote:You're actually obligated to take the best save available to you - which would be the Shadowfield in this case.

But aren't wargear/weapons optional ? Just because a model has been equipped with a powerfist, does that mean he has to use it during an assault ?

Yes, unless he has another special weapon. See the BGB pg. 42 under the heading 'A normal and a special weapon'.

Yeah, but that's not a wargear rule. Those rules only apply to weapons.

You have to take your best save, regardless of where that save is coming from. You're allowed to skip a numerically "better" save that's not applicable-as in the example with the 2+ cover save versus the flamer.

If the saves are equally applicable, can you choose then? For example, say our theoretical DE character with a shadow field is in 2+ cover against an attack that doesn't ignore cover saves. Can he choose to take the 2+ cover save instead of his shadow field? If he can, then I think he can take his standard armor save against the scythe, as the standard armor and the shadow field are equally (not) applicable.

**Iron_Chaos_Brute**

Thor is right. You must use the best save available.

HWYPI/My interpretation of RAW:
IMO, the INAT ruling is incorrect. You must have the chance to fail something to fail it.