Space wolves question

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**garigon**

Can I use JotWW on one unit using my runepriest and then assault another unit?

Also, if my runepriest has used JotWW, can the squad he is attached to fire at a different unit in the shooting phase?

**Anpu42**

1] No, you must Assault the Unit you fired at.

2] Only if you are with Long Fangs

**garigon**

Are you sure? i thought I simply draw a straight line, and it can affect whatever is in that line. so really, it's not like targetting a specific unit?

Would it ignore the harlequin veil of tears rule?

**Anpu42**

1] It's like a Flamer Template

2] ??? I will have to look, I do not own the Eldar Book.

**garigon**

I thought you're not targetting a unit, so ofc you'd be allowed to assault another unit?

**Anpu42**

That is actualy a debat with JotWW that will go on unitl GW says somthing about it.
RAW are unlcear, but I would look at RAI, this is a Shooty Power, becouse it goes off in the Shooting Phase. There is nothing out there like this so we have no referance.
If later we find that it is not, then we have played within the rules and we don't have to change.
If we find that It is a Shooty Power and we have not run it that way, then alot of players will be jumping around saying "We Told You So"

**Volkov**

There is nothing out there like this so we have no referance.

Anyone have a codex: armageddon handy? the salamander psychic was similar to this, so what was the wording for that?

**Lordhat**

You can assault whatever unit you want after JotWW. It doesn't need a target, so you wouldn't qualify for the "unit you shot at" restriction. If you really wanted you could lay the line so it touches no models at all.....

**A-P**

JotWW is essentially a dysfunctional power. Why? Because there are as many ways of using it as there players. Until GW gets a clue and provides us with a FAQ that explains how the feth this power is supposed to work we are on our own. For the sake of sanity and civility I advocate using the road of "least advantageous" ( you can only assault what you shot with the JotWW ).

**Lordhat**

I don't think its Dysfunctional in the slightest.

BGB pg 50 wrote:
...Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack. In the same way, way, if a psyker targets a unit with a a psychic with a psychic shooting attack, then he can only assault that unit in the ensuing assault phase.

Once again JotWW does not require a target unit to be used, and so, being the more specific rule, overrides the normal restrictions placed upon psychic shooting attacks in regards to targets and assaulting. Nothing in the rules on pg. 50 indicates that a psychic shooting attack must have a target, just that when it does, the normal rules for shooting a ranged weapon apply.

**kirsanth**

JotWW is a psychic shooting attack. As such it needs to have a target chosen and visible, and this will restrict the unit it is with as any other shooting attack would.

That said, the line drawn does not have to go through the target unit, as written.

**nosferatu1001**

Kirsanth - read the quote posted above: it states IF you target a unit you must assault said unit.

You simply dont have any opp. to pick a target as you immediately, upon passing the psychic test, pass tot he rules in the codex which tell you to pick a direction.

No target, assault what you like, VoT does nothing, you unit can shoot at any target.

**kirsanth**

I read the posts. I disagree with a fair share of them, which is why I posted.
To follow you line of discussion; nosferatu1001 -- read the rule book. The first step in using shooting attacks is to check line of sight and choose a target.

The JotWW power is a shooting attack. Drawing a line, as I mentioned, can have no relation to this target, but one is chosen when using shooting attacks.

**nosferatu1001**

Then show where the power requires a roll to hit, roll to wound, etc - it doesnt, as it modifies the shooting rules.

The first step in psychic powers is to roll a psychic test. Once you do this you follow the rules for the psychic power - in this case you simply pick a direction.

**kirsanth**

And as a shooting attack, a target must be chosen.

To-hit?
How is that related?
To use a shooting attack you need a target. Unless an allowance is made otherwise. Drawing a line and affecting models on this line is negating the To-hit just like blast and templates do. Nothing ever says not to choose a target.

Editing to add:
Seriously, check page 50 - the section labeled "Psychic shooting attacks". JotWW is one and as such, follows these rules.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Then show where the power requires a roll to hit, roll to wound, etc - it doesnt, as it modifies the shooting rules.

The first step in psychic powers is to roll a psychic test. Once you do this you follow the rules for the psychic power - in this case you simply pick a direction.

It says specifically in the powers entry that it is a Psychic Shooting Attack, thus you need to pick a target.

**Iron_Chaos_Brute**

To agree with Kinsrath, JoTWW works like this:
You pick a target (the "targeted" unit).
You put the line wherever you want, regardless of what you targeted.
Resolve JoTWW.
The rest of the squad has to shoot the same targeted unit, even if you sent JoTWW elsewhere.
If the Priest and his squad want to assault, they have to assault the targeted unit, even if you sent JoTWW elsewhere.

**A-P**

See? The arguments start from defining "Psychic shooting attack" and from there things just go down hill

. This thread is almost an exact copy of a lively "discussion" I had with one of the resident SW player when he tried to use JotWW for the very first time. The arguments flew back and forth for ten minutes until we called a cease fire and resorted to that abomination of GW rules; a 4+ die roll.

**jmurph**

Yeah, it will usually get into a rules debate. FWIW, Jaws has specific rules for resolution (pick a point) and does not require a target unit, so that section of the PSA rules is not applicable. It nowhere in the PSA rules says you must pick a target unit, just that you must see a target unit. If none exists, then it follows that provision does not apply. The limitation on assault follows this same logic- *If* a psyker targets a unit (which Jaws does not).

But, you have to get used to rules debates with Jaws. It is pretty vaguely worded and people flip out over its potential power.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

garigon wrote:Can I use JotWW on one unit using my runepriest and then assault another unit?

Technically no, you cannot target one squad and then charge another. You have to charge the targeted squad, but when you use JotWW (after passing your psychic test) you may draw the line in any direction meaning you can hit other enemy squads that aren't the targeted unit.

garigon wrote:Also, if my runepriest has used JotWW, can the squad he is attached to fire at a different unit in the shooting phase?

The answer to this question is similar to the previous one, technically no, but like mentioned previously JotWW's line can be drawn in any direction. So you have it hit another squad and then have the Grey Hunters or Wolf Guard fire at the originally targeted unit.

Hope this is helpful.

**Demogerg**

Ok, Jaws of the World Wolf is not actually a psychic shooting attack, it is used AS a psychic shooting attack. Please read page 37 of the space wolf codex.

Thunderclap: "... as a psychic shooting attack..."

This ability does not scatter, you just place the marker and it hits what it hits.

Living Lightning: "... is a psychic shooting attack..."

This ability actually is a psychic shooting attack and thus follows all psychic shooting rules

Fury of the Wolf Spirits: "... as a psychic shooting attack. They are treated like a single shooting attack but they use both profiles below and both target the same unit."

This is not a standard shooting attack, but it tells you exactly how to apply the BRB rules for this special case.

Murderours Hurrican: "... is a psychic shooting attack..."

this is a psychic shooting attack and follows all rules in the BRB for a psychic shooting attack

Jaws of the World Wolf: "As a psychic shooting attack..."

Again, as a psychic shooting attack, it is not by definition a psychic shooting attack, it merely takes the place of the one psychic shooting attack that a Rune Priest can make each turn. It is used in the shooting phase, you cannot run and use this power, etc... but after the power has been cast you can ignore all the BRB rules for psychic shooting attacks.

So RAW, you are well within the rules to cast Jaws to hit a few models in one unit, then assault at a completely different unit.

Jaws does not target any unit.

this may cause some arguements if you try to do this with some people with less than average reading comprehension skills. I would recommend trying to not put youself in a situation where this debate will come up, but if it does, Page 37 of your codex is well written, people just dont know how to read.

**kirsanth**

Demogerg wrote:but after the power has been cast you can ignore all the BRB rules for psychic shooting attacks.

And this is why I disagree.

You need a target before you use the power.

**Hollismason**

Kind of wondering myself what happens if you target one unit that is directly in front of you but crosses over models that are engaged i n close combat.

**nosferatu1001**

kirsanth wrote:And as a shooting attack, a target must be chosen.

To-hit?
How is that related?
To use a shooting attack you need a target. Unless an allowance is made otherwise. Drawing a line and affecting models on this line is negating the To-hit just like blast and templates do. Nothing ever says not to choose a target.

Editing to add:
Seriously, check page 50 - the section labeled "Psychic shooting attacks". JotWW is one and as such, follows these rules.

"To Hit" is relevant as it is the next part of shooting rules, which you are clinging so dearly to. Both Blast and Termplate attacks have lines which *replace* the standard "to hit" with something else, however JOTWW does not have this explicit replacement - you have simply *assumed* it does not roll to hit. Given that you have *assumed* it requires a target, why have you *assumed* it does not need to roll to hit said target?*

In other words your approach is inconsistent, as you are reading it as a partly fully defined replacement for the shooting rules, by assuming "to hit" has been replaced while assuming "pick a target" has not been replaced. My way reads the rule as "all inclusive" and a modification of the *general* rules for psychic powers, whcih is explicitly allowed for on Page 50 - right before the PSA section - and as such you trigger the power (succesfully pass test) and then follow the directives given in the power - you have no chance to pick a target as you immediately draw a line.

Your way: randomly removes rules from shooting, randomly leaves some in
My Way: treats the power as fully defined set of rules for resolving said power.

Which way is simpler, more consistent and doesnt lead to abberent situations?

*and this doesnt even get intot he issue of - how many dice would you roll to hit and why? You simply cannot assume it is Assault 1

**fabbes**

Hollismason wrote:Kind of wondering myself what happens if you target one unit that is directly in front of you but crosses over models that are engaged i n close combat.

"JotWW don't care if you are swinging punches... it doesnt even care if you are on the same team"

Something like that

**kirsanth**

nosferatu1001 wrote:*and this doesnt even get intot he issue of - how many dice would you roll to hit and why? You simply cannot assume it is Assault 1

The section I pointed to covers all of this; even, in fact that the the single line is actually shown to be Assault 1.

**nosferatu1001**

Wrong, it states it is ASSAULT unless otherwise specified, it never specifes a number....

What about your other assumptions that you made?

**kirsanth**

The rest of the sentence covered that - single line.
That said, it is entirely irrelevant. The PSA does not fire anything, you draw a line.

/boggle

Editing to add:
I keep rereading page 50 trying to find out why you keep harping on "To-hit" rolls. "To hit" is not even on the page, so there is no way I am making assumptions about To-hit rolls.

**nosferatu1001**

Huh? No, you made an assumption that the roll "to hit" is removed, that it is Assault 1 when the rules only specify it is Assault by default, etc. Why should it not be Assault [number of models in target unit]?

Why should it not have to roll "to hit" its target? It doesnt even need a target yet you insist it has one...

I repeat: one method involves following the directives as given, as a self contained modification to the PSA rules (as directly allowed for on page 50) - you method does not, and creates odd situations.

**kirsanth**

How is following the rules an odd situation?