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I'm not too familiar with said Space puppy power but when I played against an opponent today he said that my destroyers weren't immune to it even tho they move like jet bikes, they technically aren't. I've dug around the FAQs and even in the Necron codex it says 'Jetbikes' under special rules...we rolled off to save time and thankfully I won and saved half my destroyers said fate but it's nagging me, are they truly jetbikes and immune to the power or just move like jetbikes and are still infantry...

Sorry, maybe I'm missing something, but why would jetbikes be immune to JotWW?

jaws hits mcs, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry.

it doesnt hit things like assault marines with jump packs. i think the destroyer would be hit if they are jetbikes, those are bikes no? i never run bikers of any army so i dont know =/

It does exclude Jump Infantry, but Jetbikes are Bikes, so would be affected.

Which, to my mind, makes no sense, but there you go. I would probably house rule it to not affect jetbikes. Given the loose wording elsewhere in the codex, that's quite possibly the intention anyway.


In this particular case, though... Destroyers count as jetbikes specifically for movement. For everything else, lacking a specific category designation otherwise, they are infantry, so will be affected by JotWW.

Why would Jaws affect jetbikes? They are not on the list of units it can affect. Bike and jetbike are different unit types. Otherwise jump infantry would count as infantry in the same way.

In the case of necrons though, insaniak is, sadly, correct. They are FAQ'ed to remain unit type infantry despite moving as a jetbike.

I thought jetbikes were bikes for all intents & purposes...the instances where they are different apply only to actions taken during the player's turn [when moving, assaulting, & falling back; all are clearly delinated in the rule book], as opposed to during the opponent's turn with regard to attacking them? whereas there is never an implication under ''Jump Infantry'' that they are ''exactly like Infantry, except...'' which is the case under Jetbikes?

It's made clear that wraiths and scarabs are infantry but nowhere in regards of Destroyers and the destroyer body upgrade. Thus my question.

As far as I can remember, this is the argument against JotWW affecting jetbikes from several months ago.:

Ambiguities of formatting aside, there are three places in the rulebook where the unit types are enumerated.

On pages four and five, the categories are: infantry; beasts and cavalry; monstrous creatures; jump infantry; bikes and jetbikes; vehicles and artillery.

On page fifty one, the list is "monstrous creatures, jump infantry, bikes & jetbikes, beasts and calvary and artillery'.

One page 301 of the hard cover rulebook, bikes and jetbikes are listed separately.

So, 'bike' and 'jetbike' refer to separate unit types.

I don't know if I'm leaving anything out...

sorry for perpetuating this argument, but I don't think ''bikes'' & ''jetbikes'' are treated as separate entities in this situation.

now, granted, I am referencing the mini-book included with AoBR, but it says under Jetbikes ''Jetbikes are the same as bikes, with the following exceptions:''
From there, the only ''exceptions'' refer to their ability to bypass models & terrain, but only during Movement & during a Fall Back. As far as I know, those 2 things only happen during a player's turn & would therefore not affect an opponent's interaction with Jetbikers during their own turn.

Don't get me wrong, I think the JotWW is poorly-worded & damn powerful & I would love for it to have any restriction possible, but I think the rules for Jetbikes make distinctions only based on how the controlling player interacts with them & not their opponent?

In the interest of making sure that the Eldar players aren't ignoring the issue in a Necron rules thread, started a new topic here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/269285.page.

Radical bob - your quote does NOT say they are the same unit type however, it just states tehy follow the same rule as Bikes with some exceptions. Same as bikes follow the rules for infantry with some exceptions, MCs follow the same rules with some exceptions...

ALL that matters is the unit type, and unit type: Jetbike is different to Unit type:Bike. Look at what your entry says - unless your unit type is one of the ones listed, you are not affected.

If destroyers are "jetbikes" then they are not affected. If, however they are Unit Type: infantry with "moves as Jetbike" then they WOULD be affected, in the same way as Daemon Princes with Wings only "move as Jump Infantry", meaning they are stilla ffected.

dude no offense, but if that were true then ''Jetbikes'' would have been excluded the same way that ''Jump Infantry'' was excluded?

see the other thread for my [inferior] logic.

I think GW is different from other companies in that it makes the [false] assumption that players will approach the rules from a logical standpoint & not try to interpret semantics to gain a strategic advantage. Of course, this is foolish of me, but when they make an effort to point out the differences between ''Bikes'' & ''Jetbikes'' whilst going so far as to say that the two are one and the same with two obvious differences, I would hope that people would treat them as the same except for the two explicit differences. Especially when it says ''Jetbikes are the same as Bikes...''

Huh? JotWW does NOT mention "Jetbike", therefore it does not affect unit type:Jetbike

Does your unit type state Jetbike or "Bike & Jetbike" - i think you will find it states the former...in which case tehre is NO possible argument that "Unit type:Bike" = "Unit type:Jetbike" - that is illogical and doesnt follow the rules.

You do realise that MCs follow the rules for Infantry with some exceptions? Same as Jetbikes function as bikes with some exceptions. Still doesnt make them the same unit type, meaning your argument still has no merit. The entire rulebook is based on setting out the basic rules, for infantry in most cases, and then showing the exceptions / changes to those rules for different unit types.

Unit type: Jetbike is not mentioned in JotWW, therefore Jetbikes are not affected by JotWW

ok, this is going in circles, so I'm going to just fall back on the fact that as far as ''rules'' interpretations go, as per what I already mentioned ''Jetbikes are the same as Bikes...'' and nothing in the exceptions would imply that the exceptions apply to an opponent's interaction with the controlling players models...if JotWW says it can affect ''Bikes'' then it can affect ''Jetbikes'' because from what I can tell an opponent treats the two as one and the same, as opposed to a mutually exclusive option.
***Please note that NOWHERE in the section titled ''Jump Infantry'' does it say that Jump Infantry are the same as Infantry. This is because your opponent treats Jump Infantry in a different way when dealing with them, as is clearly laid out in their segment of the rule book. Jetbikes are an overlay on the page that includes Bikes and implies that they are to be treated as one and the same. The reason they are listed specifically in the Codex entry for the particular unit is to alert the Controlling Player as to their unique abilities that appy to the operation of said units during their [Controlling Player's] turn***

if you want to say I'm wrong then fine, but I feel that my point has been articulated & well documented & when I face off against a Space Wolf army that's how it is going to be if I win the d6 roll-off...

and if your position is the case, then how exactly is it that Jump Infanty aren't affected? Just because it doesn't mention Jump Infantry? [that's not meant to be sarcastic, I don't have the C:SW so I don't know verbatim the rule]

Unit type: Jetbike is not the same as Unit type:bike, even if jetbikes share some rules with bikes. If you believe they are the same that would mean ALL bikes are jetbikes, and vice versa - which they are not.

Unit type designates WHICH RULES you follow, in other words it tells you "this model is a jetbike, follow the rules for jetbikes" - even though the rules for jetbikes state look at the rules for bikes, this does not change your unit type to bike. If it did then there woudl be no need for the seperate unit types, as you have made the two exactly the same.

JotWW explicitly mentions the unit types it affects. Jetbekes and Jump Infantry are not listed, therefore they are not affected. It is entirely irrelevant what rules Jetbikes follow, as the unit type is not a unit type that is listed.

they are only different for the Controlling Player. Any circumstance where that is not the case is clearly delineated in the rule book...I'm still using the Skimmer entry as an example, which I know is not the same, but it is an instance where GW felt obligated to differentiate between what happens on the Controlling Player's turn & what happens on the Opposing Player's turn [ie, Tank Shock].

sorry I am not trying to say that my way is better, so I should probably just shut up, but I really do believe that my point has just as much validity as yours & that's why I love ''The Most Important Rule.''

Irrelevant

JotWW affects specific Unit Types. Unit Type: Jetbike is not on the list of affected unit types, and is therefore not affected

It really, really, is not any more difficult than that.

Edit: it unfortunately does not have as much validity, as your argument does not reference Unit Type at all, and that is ALL that JotWW cares about. The rules that the units follow within the unit type does not matter - ALL it cares about is what unit type you are.

throw me a bone here & just quote me the exact nomenclature of ''Jaws of the World Wolf'' would you? I will concede that you are right & I don't know wtf I'm talking about, but I'd sure love to know exactly what I'm up against before I show up to play all the bandwagon-jumpers who have switched to SW now that the new Codex is out...

for what it's worth, I enjoy being proven wrong in a debate as much as I enjoy showing that I'm right, because I love to change up my opinion of things about every other week!

I can't really do more than I have already - JotWW states the *specific* unit types it affects - and Jetbikes is not on there. Unit Type: Bike IS different to Unit Type: Jetbike, and is therefore not affected by JotWW

It is irrelevant what rules you use, if you have a different unit type as far as the game is concerned you ARE different at a unit type level - Jump Infantry are Infantry that can move differently, but they are still different unit types

well, again no offense, but that's no kind of selling point.

I will cede you this until I can actually get off my lazy ass & get into my FLGS, but I still have my own personal reservations about the whole thing...

as far as I can tell, Unit Type is more for the player using the model [most specifically w/r/t the Force Org. chart, again a foolish ''assumption'' on my part - we all know what assumption does! ] than the player opposing the model & in every instance in the rule book this is the case, including as you mentioned Monstrous Creatures. And especially when ''Bikes & Jetbikes'' is treated as ONE ENTRY under the Unit Types section of the rule book, whereas others are identified separately!

However, since I don't think we're getting anywhere with this, you win & I will see you next time! Especially since, as per my response in the Jetbikes vs. Bikes thread, I accept this ruling to benefit my Eldar!

Still not sure what you are having problems with though,t hats the trouble Im having! I can't post the rules either, as I have already posted the substantive portion - that the rule specifies Unit Types that it affects, and Jet Bikes are not listed on there.

Perhaps a car analogy?

Car type: VW Golf is different to Car Type: VW Scirocco even though they use the same chassis and underpinnings - they share similarities but are different at the "level" of unit types.

So if you are told that Vehicle Tax affects VW Golfs, then VW Sciroccos would be exempt despite being substantially the same as Golfs. Even if the RULE for Scirocco states "this is a Golf but with these differences" the vehicle type is different, so it is not affected - as the level at which you are differentiating the cars states that they are different.

Does that help?

sorry, I know I shouldn't do this & should be reprimanded accordingly. However, if you look in the AoBR mini-book [which I will grant you may not be as ''official'' as the BRB] under the UNIT TYPES, it clearly distinguishes between Infantry & Jump Infantry; however, when you look a bit further down, Bikes & Jetbikes are ONE entry mashed together. Upon further inspection [if you can't tell I'm awaiting the new Guy Ritchie interpretation of Sherlock Holmes!] you will notice that under the Bikes section of UNIT TYPES it says that Bikes & Jetbikes are the same thing as far as dealing with them in a game with TWO noted exceptions, neither of which implies that your opponent [provided you aren't the SW player] would treat them as distinct! Now, under other sections, it very clearly lays out the distinction between models as non-infantry or what have you; under bikes it is pretty clear that regardless of this so-called ''Unit Type'' jetbikes get treated like bikes.

I get your semantical argument, and again I apologize. Truth be told, I used to have much more ridiculous arguments than this one with Warmachine players & that's half the reason I came onto 40k...

Until I get off my duffer & check the rule for myself, I will again as I've already mentioned, cede that you are correct in your interpretation...however, that's not to say that I will de facto play that way in my FLGS.

Again, I wield the undeniable power of ''The Most Important Rule!''

lol

However when it comes to the unit entry, does it list:

Unit type: Bike
Unit type: Jet Bike, or
Unit type: Bikes & JetBikes?

that is all that counts, as this makes the distinction.

While the BRB may say these are the only things that differentiate them in a game, the SW codex adds another distinction - a floating bike doesnt fall into the ground, whereas one with wheels does. Guys with jump packs dont fall into the hole whereas guys without can do.

The heading "Bikes and Jetbikes " is the grouping, it does not define the unit type nomenclature within that group. Your argument has the end result that bike and jetbike becmoe interchangeable, meaning all spacemarine bikes can now ignroe terrain....

argh, I swore I wouldn't but dude, they don't ignore terrain because everything about Jetbikes refers to the controlling player's phase & has nothing to do with their opponent's phase. This is different from Skimmers [as an example] because they have rules governing BOTH the controlling player's turn & the opponent's turn...
I mean, why wouldn't Jump Infantry just have been a callout box from Infantry that said ''Jump Infantry are the same as Infantry except...''? My logical deduction, because Jump Infantry are different enough to warrant being considered as Jump Infantry & not some specialised form of Infantry. However, they took the time to say that ''Jetbikes are the same as Bikes, except...'' which to me implies that in certain circumstances they are to be treated exactly like bikes, except for the very specific two instances where they are treated different, of which neither reference the opponent. Therefore, when we are considering even, as you say, ''Unit Type'': Jetbike, to anyone but a player using said models in any way outside of those explicity set forth in the BRB [BLB in this case?] they are treated as if they were Unit Type: Bike...'' I mean, if they didn't then why not have a separate entry which CLEARLY delineates them as a separate entity. In every instance where that is the case, it is pretty much obviously defined as being different than a base model type? To take this a step further, show me ANY rule in ANY Codex which specifices both Bikes & Jetbikes [or specifically excludes one or the other] in the same way described in JotWW & then I will totally realize the error of my ways.

Nevertheless you are right, okay? I think that should end this until the thread is locked & considered resolved...

Unit Type: Bike /= Unit Type: Jetbike - and Unit type: Bike is the unit type that JotWW affects.

That. Is. It. Nothing more, nothing less, please read the other thread whee your argument is more thoroughly debunked than I can manage right now.

Unit Type: Bike is different to Unit Type: Jet Bike. NOTHING you have posted proves anything different to that, as nothing needs to "reference the opponent" - for example JI *also* never mentions how the opponent treats them differently to Infantry, so by your "logic" we should now treat JI as the same?

No

ALL that counts is your entry in Unit type.

I think it's rad that I'm here defending the Space Wolves position on this, when I don't even have a SW army, & my interpretation will come back to bite me in the ass more than it would help me...
you get the last word ftw. and Jetbikes when I win the roll-off are, as per my own personal RAI, treated the same as Bikes...

man I need to work on my dictation, that would alleviate all these Edits!

Out of all the parts inteh SW codex, this is however the *clearest* rule in there - it doesn't need defending as it is settled RAW *and fits fluff* - or do you think a floating bike should fall down a hole in the ground?

(if you didnt realise that Jaws opens a hole in t he ground, then sorry - but this is why having the rules in front of you helps as you can judge RAI as well)

If you want a unit type that is identical, look at Beasts and Cavalry - they are indeed identical, whereas Bikes are NOT identical to Jet Bikes.

"Jetbikes are the same as bikes EXCEPT...." - you should bold all of it, including the exception - as the excpet means they are not "the same" but *similar*

Radical blob,
Here's the text of the power: Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test.(bgb p.8) If the models fails the test, it is removed from play.

It specifies what unit types it affects. Now, consulting my ork codex I see that I have warbikes which are listed as unit type 'bikes' and I have deff koptas which are listed as 'jetbikes' under unit type.

lol, I am not making any friends here, but the words ''Unit Type'' don't appear anywhere in that...I'm still waiting for an example beyond the ''Unit Type'' entry in a codex where the two are treated as mutually exclusive. furthermore, nothing about the ''fluff'' of an anti-grav engine implies that it has an indefinite suspension of gravity, so why wouldn't a giant hole in the ground create unforseen problems for the rider? [before this gets taken out of context I will state that it is a joke, as I believe all fluff=rules arguments to be!] GW, a company obviously concerned with profitability, would not resort to the redundancy of wasting ink typing out both Bike & Jetbike when they made an attempt to group the two together in the generic rule book?
seems like I've just got a different mindset until a FAQ is released & sorry to anybody that I offended as that was not my intention.

off-topic PS: olympia, as much as I may love Arsenal I have had no end of laughs from your sig, hehe! [which, btw, I totally agree with!]

It seems the query has been answered so I will lock the thread.

If someone wants it unlocked, please PM a different moderator as I am now going out to a Christmas party for the rest of the day.