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I've heard a lot of Dakka members saying that Bretonnians are one of the nastiest armies to play against.

I have to disagree as out of the few Bretonnian players we have in my area, all of them seem to have mediocre winning records.

Well now it's time for me to put up or shut up as I take WoC vs Bretonnians at 2k.

Soooooooo... What should I be looking out for?

EDIT: I just found out, i'm also playing against Empire this week too. Any help with that?

So, against WoC I would suggest some form of Magic Defense, always.

Now in combat, WoC will probably want to win through Active Resolution, and unless the unit is at 15+ size you'll probably out-res him. So, try to win through about 2-3 kills and Active CR. Virtue of Discipline and Banner of the Lady are must-haves, regardless of your opponent.

Now, Empire has a good selection of everything, so magic defense is a tad less important here. However, be aware that Empire Shooting is second only to Dwarves, and more often than not you'll find you'll be relying on the Blessing of the Lady to keep your knights alive. Once again, Virtue of Discipline and Banner of the Lady are instrumental here.

I'm taking WoC Leechdude.

I don't know what Bretonnian armies contain or what theyir tactics are.

Oh. Ha ha. My bad.

Bretonnians simply want to charge down the field. Nothing else really.

Well then, unless he's taking magic defense, your magic phase will probably be more dominant. Infernal Gateway is obviously crucial.

You should take some hounds to re-direct his knights, leaving their flanks open for a flank charge from your Chaos Warriors.

Against Empire, you'll need some cheap units to soak up gunfire whilst your warriors engage with his infantry. Be wary of detachments.

If all they do is charge, what do I have to worry about?

It's not like they can get through a 2+ save even in Lance Formation. Is there?

Well, at S5, you'll be reduced to a 4+, which isn't always handy.

And Knights errant with Errantry Banner reduce you to 5+.

Knights on the charge will devastate most infantry units, so flanking them will reap the most benefit.

In Lance, they CAN break Chaos Warriors. They'll garner a kill or two, and virtue of discipline will take away your +1 for outnumbering.

Banner of the Lady will also remove rank bonus. Plus, they'll probably pray on the first turn, garnering a 6/5+ Ward.

One on One, it's pretty even. However, Brets often take heroes in their formations, so they'll have a slight bonus.

radiohazard wrote:If all they do is charge, what do I have to worry about?

It's not like they can get through a 2+ save even in Lance Formation. Is there?

All I can say for sure is: They'll probably have a starting combat res of two to three (depending on how big the unit started, and how many remain when they reach combat). Due to lance formation, be very careful as they can hit with a decent number of models (seven, for instance) while having only a 75mm wide frontage. Considering that two of those could be characters, that can be a lot of S5 and S6 hits on your units with minimal attacks back.

With six attacks even (only one rank, no characters), they're going to kill one Chaos Warrior and be at a static res of 3. Not too high, but that's a single min-size unit with no characters charging on its own. With competent Bretonians, you won't see that often. An attached character can easily increase the number of combat-res wounds cause by 1-to-2, and a larger unit can add an additional rank, perhaps an outnumber bonus, and a second unit hitting (easily possible) can cause even more combat res wounds.

As such: Soften them up! Use any magic you have, as Bretonians tend to be pretty slouching in the magic defense department (don't think I've ever seen a 2K game with them with more than 4 DD and a few scrolls).

Nurgle magic will be great.

Cloying quagmire is the bane of knight units...Bubboes is always good, and they don't have anti-regen abilties, so regen is good. (Actually most of the Nurgle magic is no armor save)

Divert the blocks with Dogs and nail them in the flank.

I've heard a lot of Dakka members saying that Bretonnians are one of the nastiest armies to play against.

I haven't heard anyone say that in atleast a couple of years. When Bretonnians were new and Daemons didn't exist and DE had a crap book, the Royal Air Force was a force to be reckoned with. Those days have passed a long time ago. Nowadays the Bretonnians just suck and there's absolutely nothing you need to worry about.

Therion wrote:

I've heard a lot of Dakka members saying that Bretonnians are one of the nastiest armies to play against.

I haven't heard anyone say that in atleast a couple of years. When Bretonnians were new and Daemons didn't exist and DE had a crap book, the Royal Air Force was a force to be reckoned with. Those days have passed a long time ago. Nowadays the Bretonnians just suck and there's absolutely nothing you need to worry about.

The theoryhammer in my head tells me to agree with you.

The games i've seen played with Bretonnians were very much in favour against them, but with a lack of Firepower and only 2 Sorcerers, I have a very bad feeling about this.

I just looked at their book and TBH, the lance formation is quite scary. It could pose some problems. Peasants do not trouble me at all however and in regards for character vs character - I know my Chaos Lord will destroy who ever he faces.

Empire on the other hand are a different prospect.

I know my opponent has at least 1 STank, Cannons and more Knights than you can shake a stick at. IIRC he only has three foot units (One Greatswords, 2 Flagellants) With Priests as Heroes and a Templar Grand Master as General. He might have some Handgunners, but I'm not sure.

The Empire bothers a lot more than the Bretonnians.

Probably.

All I am suggesting is be careful, and try to disallow him the charge. (For Bret's)

Well I played against the Bretonnians tonight and it was a close game - very close.

Those Pegasus knights are a pain in the backside, especially when they are run in 3 units and a lord.

It came down to a draw.

The next game was against Dwarfs and you can read about what happened in the Batreps forum.

IMO WoC are very much a mixed bag. My army's record is currently 6-4-1, with the Wins coming in from a competant DoC army, Ogres twice, TK, OnG and WE. The losses were against DE twice, DoC and Dwarfs. The draw against Bretonnia.

I must say the even though I like the models, I dislike the way WoC play. They are very 1 dimensional. After seeing an Empire and Dwarf army play, I may go for one of them for my army as opposed to WoC.

I must say the even though I like the models, I dislike the way WoC play. They are very 1 dimensional. After seeing an Empire and Dwarf army play, I may go for one of them for my army as opposed to WoC.

Empire has shooting, warmachines, cavalry and monsters like the War Altar and Steam Tank. They're a great army when built right, but if you're interested in an army like that, both the High Elves and Dark Elves would also do well for you.

The tough bit for Brets is their leadership and panic.

If their charge fails they are easily flanks due to the length of larger units and then the whole army seems to crumble.

If it is a halfway decent player he will:
Almost be entirely knights + a unit of pegasus knights.
There may be a unit or 2 of bowmen or a trebuchet

Combo charge.

Your units of knights will go splat vs 16 WS 4 St 5 attacks and 14 WS3 St 3 attacks from the horses if x2 9 man KOR units hit you.

He gets ranks (thanks to lance) your cav will not.

Also all his cav move 16 inches charge/march, your entire army except for mtd marauders and flying stuff will be moving slower.

Well, as a Bretonnian player I would love to throw down with any of you and show you that Brets are still competitive (not tier 1, but still good)

Now my disclaimer: I don't play like most Brets. I think that the "knightly charge" across the table is stupid and one of the most obvious things to do, which means that it is easy to counter.

So, my 2000 pt list (I forget exactly what I had but you'll get the idea)

Paladin, virt joust, lance artois, shld
paladin, virt emp, BSB, sword of carc...
damsel, d scroll, d scroll, horse
damsel, d scroll, chalice

4 or 7 KotR cmd war banner
26 Men at arms
10 bowmen
10 bowmne
10 bowmen
10 bowmen skirmish

5 mouted yeomen shld music
5 mouted yeomen shld music
3 peg knights

5 grail knights, cmd, no stand and shoot banner

I think that is what I had.


maneuverable, hard hitting and shooty enough to drop big nasties in 2 turns (giants, stegies...)
5 ddice, 3 scrolls, it holds of magic very well.
2 fast cav, 1 flyers, no warmachine or gun line is safe, no flank isn't exposed. No wizard can hide.
2 lances (yeah, they aren't AMAZING) with enough umph to cause a couple casualties
combined with a massive static res peasant unit with the BSB that can still hurt things.
Also, fleeing from enemy charges, even with knights + using so many peasents really seems to screw everyone up.

I don't play a whole lot, but I haven't lost the last few games. Before that (like 2 years ago when I played a lot more) I played against a veteran O&G player weekly when I first got my army (right before and after 7th) The all knights was devestating, if it hit, if it broke. When the insane courage rule came, and came up in the first 7th ed game, that pretty much ended me playing all knights. The peasents on the other hand, are willing to sit in combat. Over the course of a map based campaign, my philosophy was after each week, buy and paint what I needed for the next week. (My guys aren't well painted) Maybe it was just my play still but pretty much I started all knights, and after getting suckered, fanaticed, shot up, playing the Storm of Chaos Orc list and not being able to break anything... I wanted more peasents, more fast cav, more archers... whatever.

And the last thing out of this misplaced rant is Bretonnians have a little of everything, except scouts.
They have ranged units, infantry units, heavy cav, fast cav, flyers, casters, skirmishers, warmachine... just not a lot of options in each category, the heroes aren't anything special (though nothing to scoff at), same with the magic items, and no active res infantry.

Well that is a decent number of bodies to be sure, but you are only looking at less than 1700. So you forgot something pretty big.

Personally I think a balanced brettonian list will fair better than the massed cavalry charge that can be easily countered. The strength of the list the knights, but having something for the lances to work with is pretty good. Men at arms aren't much of a threat, but their resolution is dangerous enough that they limit opposing forces options. You don't ever leave a flank open to 4-5 static res, even if you have knights about to flank you. It gives the bret player better options than charging straight forward every game.

oh right, 2000 pts, I'm allowed another hero. Paladin on Pegasus, quest vow, g hmr, insignia of the quest, virt noble disdain. (the g hmr is mostly 'cause I use Luthor Huss on a pegasus, it's not really necessary) anyway, that's what I was missing, and it does the same thing the peg knights do.

I'm sorry but that Bretonnian list doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of even avoid getting tabled against any tier 1 army and it will get solidly beaten by every tier 2 army as well.

How do you deal with a Black Dragon and Hydra on the table backed up by enough ranged firepower to wipe half of your cavalry from the table? Is one of your Paladins going to take down the Bloodthirster and his Flesh Hound friends? What in the list is going to go through a regenerating BK bunker? How do you deal with five Stegadons or the Star Dragon? A standard War Altar+Steam Tanks+3-4 warmachines Empire will also wipe the floor with you. I'm sorry but your list is a good example of nearly everything that's simply not competitive with Bretonnians.

Not to pile on, but...

Is this list *really* shooty enough to drop "big nasties" in two turns? You've got 40 strength 3, ballistic skill 3 shots. Statistically, you'll need them all to have LOS and range and no casualties to drop a giant in two turns.

I'm quite fond of playing with un-optimized lists, but feel kind of skeptical on calling this one competitive.

RZ