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So i ran into some issues last night after a battle.

So during close combat, if a mob starts in base to base or within 2 inches of the units that are in base to base, you may choose to split up the attacks between the unit and the independent before you decide to roll. Thus say you have a warboss with 10 mega nobs. a SM Independent with a retnu can single all of their attacks to the war boss. The SM with the retnu CAN NOT be singled out because an independent with a retnu loses his independent status until his retnu dies.

So with this Any army that does not have retnu choices like orkz and choas are screwed as Dark angles and Space wolfs will almost always be considered retnus and will always single out the independent while the orkz and choas can not.

Also Old Zogwort as a psyker, and a specil ability can target a Independent within 18 inches of him and use his curse. BUT as this happens during the shooting phase if an independent is part of a unit can not be singled out. Though the ability only states that you can target an independent within 18 inches. it does not say anything about them being "singled out" or being part of a unit.

If anyone has any ideas about these rules please post what you know. As is stands i have opened up a HUGE can of worms for the choas player and myself as the ork.

Hydeckadecka wrote:So i ran into some issues last night after a battle.

So during close combat, if a mob starts in base to base or within 2 inches of the units that are in base to base, you may choose to split up the attacks between the unit and the independent before you decide to roll. Thus say you have a warboss with 10 mega nobs. a SM Independent with a retnu can single all of their attacks to the war boss. The SM with the retnu CAN NOT be singled out because an independent with a retnu loses his independent status until his retnu dies.

So with this Any army that does not have retnu choices like orkz and choas are screwed as Dark angles and Space wolfs will almost always be considered retnus and will always single out the independent while the orkz and choas can not.

Also Old Zogwort as a psyker, and a specil ability can target a Independent within 18 inches of him and use his curse. BUT as this happens during the shooting phase if an independent is part of a unit can not be singled out. Though the ability only states that you can target an independent within 18 inches. it does not say anything about them being "singled out" or being part of a unit.

If anyone has any ideas about these rules please post what you know. As is stands i have opened up a HUGE can of worms for the choas player and myself as the ork.

Actually, I believe Zogwart's curse can affect IC's within a retinue. Specific trumps general and all that.

So because it says just target an IC that you see you can hit them even in a unit and or retnu?

Hydeckadecka wrote:So during close combat, if a mob starts in base to base or within 2 inches of the units that are in base to base, you may choose to split up the attacks between the unit and the independent before you decide to roll.

Not quite right.

Models may choose to attack any unit with which they are engaged. If they are in base contact, they can only attack the unit that the model with whom they are in contact is a part of.

Thus say you have a warboss with 10 mega nobs. a SM Independent with a retnu can single all of their attacks to the war boss. The SM with the retnu CAN NOT be singled out because an independent with a retnu loses his independent status until his retnu dies.

That would be true... but there are no Space Marine IC's in the current codex who have a retinue.

So with this Any army that does not have retnu choices like orkz and choas are screwed as Dark angles and Space wolfs will almost always be considered retnus and will always single out the independent while the orkz and choas can not.

Dark Angels and Space Wolves also do not have retinues...

Also Old Zogwort as a psyker, and a specil ability can target a Independent within 18 inches of him and use his curse. BUT as this happens during the shooting phase if an independent is part of a unit can not be singled out. Though the ability only states that you can target an independent within 18 inches. it does not say anything about them being "singled out" or being part of a unit.

By RAW, that would be correct. Except where otherwise stated, psychic attacks follow the shooting rules. So he would be unable to target an IC who has joined a unit.

I suspect that's not the intention... but it is how the rules currently stand. You are of course free to agree with your opponent to play it differently.

There is no one that would agree to this rule though. Old Zog's cure lets you making an opposing roll and if your are higher the IC is turning into a squig. No saving throws nothing. I always tell my opponent though though that at least they are in controll of the squig.

insaniak wrote:
By RAW, that would be correct. Except where otherwise stated, psychic attacks follow the shooting rules. So he would be unable to target an IC who has joined a unit.

I suspect that's not the intention... but it is how the rules currently stand. You are of course free to agree with your opponent to play it differently.

I'm glad I never have to deal with psychic shooting in my lists...

Here's zogwarts special, for reference:
"Zogwart my use his curse as a psychic power instead of rolling on the wierdboy psychic power chart. Choose an Independant Character model that is in Zogwort's line of sight. If that model is within 18", both players roll a dice. If the Ork player scores higher, the target model is replaced with an angry squig under the control of your opponent."

'choose an IC model' doesn't single out an IC in a unit?
And the attack is automatically classified as psychic shooting, despite never being defined as such that I can see?

Gorkamorka wrote:'choose an IC model' doesn't single out an IC in a unit?

Not specifically, no.

All it does is tell you to pick an IC as a target of the attack.

So you have 'pick any IC' vs 'Specific ICs (those who have joined a unit) can not be targeted by enemy attacks'

The more specific rule wins.



In order for the curse to allow you to pick an IC in a unit, it would have to specifically over-ride the normal targeting rules.

is there anywhere that says says specific rules over rule general rules? just want this for reference.

Not in the rulebook. It's simply a basic premise that allows gaming rules to function... without it, no Special Rules would ever work.


If a rule outlines how something works, and then another rule outlines a different way for that thing to work in a specific instance, the more specific has to over-ride the original rule... otherwise there's no point in it existing in the first place.

my bro is emailing to GW for the FAQ. he is the one that lost Abadon to me in the second round and quit as he lost him to a single roll and his demon prince to JUST a squad of boyz in shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ill post the answer he gets as soon as he gets it.

Says pick a IC in LoS there is no exemption for models in a unit retinue or otherwise. Codex trumps Rulebook so if the rule says you may pick an IC in LoS and there are no listed restrictions, then you can pick an IC in LoS with no other restrictions. Including if its in a unit.

Hydeckadecka wrote:he is the one that lost Abadon to me in the second round and quit as he lost him to a single roll

Well, its not really a single roll... you have to pass a Psychic test as well.


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blaktoof wrote:Says pick a IC in LoS there is no exemption for models in a unit retinue or otherwise.

It doesn't specifically list restrictions because it doesn't need to. The restrictions are imposed by the fact that Psychic Powers follow the shooting rules unless specified otherwise (rulebook, page 50)

While the Curse says to choose an IC in LOS, it doesn't say to ignore the usual targeting restrictions.

Codex trumps Rulebook

Only in specific instances, where the codex specifies a rule that replaces the normal procedure. You can't just ignore the targeting rules because the codex doesn't say to apply them... the codex won't generally say to apply them, because they apply by default anyway.

What you need for the codex to trump the rulebook's targeting rules is a rule that says to ignore the normal targeting rules.

so mind war cant target specific models then?

Saying "Pick a IC in Line of Sight" is an exception to shooting rules.

As it's written, no, Mind War has no specific allowance to ignore the usual targeting rules, so you would be unable to target specific models within units. Which would make Mind War oly usable against single-model units.

Onbiously not the way it's supposed to work... and I think it's rather telling that The Ork and Eldar codexes were written by the same guy...


So with that in mind, I would concede that allowing Zogwart's Curse to target IC's in units is possibly the intention... but without a clarification, intention is just a guess. It could just as easily be that the way the rule is written is what was actually intended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:Saying "Pick a IC in Line of Sight" is an exception to shooting rules.

How so?

because the normal targeting rules don't tell you to pick a IC in LoS


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do agree it could use clarification, and I am not even 100% on it, I just assume it was intended and possibly RaW but uncertain RaW IMO that you can target any IC in LoS.

Sure... but that doesn't mean that you just toss the rest of the targeting rules out the window.

The rule tells you to pick an IC in LOS as the target.

So, it over-rides the rule that tells you that you can pick any unit in LOS.
And it over-rides the rule that tells you to measure to see if that target is in range, as it doesn't have a range limitation.

Since it doesn't say to ignore any other targeting rules, they will still apply.

What Insaniak is pointing out is also on page 48 of the BRB. Specifically it states "Some codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit they cannot leave during the game (blah blah..retinue). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of his unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independent character..."

As you can see any retinue with at least one other model still alive then the IC is not an IC but an upgrade character like a sergeant, per the rules.

But, as far as picking out an IC in a regular attached unit...absolutely. As he is still an IC and the rules say you can pick him out as long as you have LOS. But remember you have to have LOS to him which means you have to 'see' him in that unit, in which other members of that squad may very well be blocking LOS.

padixon wrote:What Insaniak is pointing out is also on page 48 of the BRB. Specifically it states "Some codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit they cannot leave during the game (blah blah..retinue). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of his unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independent character..."

As you can see any retinue with at least one other model still alive then the IC is not an IC but an upgrade character like a sergeant, per the rules.

But, as far as picking out an IC in a regular attached unit...absolutely. As he is still an IC and the rules say you can pick him out as long as you have LOS. But remember you have to have LOS to him which means you have to 'see' him in that unit, in which other members of that squad may very well be blocking LOS.

I'm fairly certain Insaniak was arguing against targeting ICs in regular units and not specifically retinues, unless I've been reading everything wrong.

Insaniak wrote:
It doesn't specifically list restrictions because it doesn't need to. The restrictions are imposed by the fact that Psychic Powers follow the shooting rules unless specified otherwise (rulebook, page 50)

I am now extremely confused about where the line is drawn between psychic shooting attacks and psychic powers. The rules on page 50 don't say that all psychic powers follow the shooting rules, just that psychic shooting attacks (defined as 'psychic powers which take the form of shooting attacks') do.
Is zogworts curse a psychic shooting attack, even though it is never defined as a shooting attack or a psychic shooting attack? Does a psychic power that affects an enemy unit at range automatically become a shooting attack somewhere?
It seems to me as though it is merely a psychic power, with a fully fledged set of rules for its use in its ability description that never refer to the shooting or targeting rules.
The psychic powers that count as psychic shooting attacks in the ork codex both gave 'counts as firing a ranged weapon' as a caveat, both had ranged attack profiles, and have both been specifically identified as psychic shooting attacks in the ork faq.

This is why I never field any of this psychic junk.

padixon wrote:What Insaniak is pointing out is also on page 48 of the BRB. Specifically it states "Some codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit they cannot leave during the game (blah blah..retinue). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of his unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independent character..."

Actually, I wasn't referring to upgrade characters, as they're not IC's while they're with a unit anyway. The shooting rules don't allow you to pick out joined IC's either.

As he is still an IC and the rules say you can pick him out as long as you have LOS.

Where do they say this?


My point so far has been that the Curse does not specifically allow you to ignore the normal targeting restrictions. The only specific change they make is to force you to target an IC rather than any unit you choose.

While, again, I'm happy to agree that targeting an IC in a unit was possibly intended to be allowed, I'm not seeing anything in the rules that actually does allow it.


Edited for clarity.

insaniak wrote:
Where do they say this?


My point so far has been that the Curse does not specifically allow you to ignore the normal targeting restrictions. The only specific change they make is to force you to target an IC rather than any unit you choose.

While, again, I'm happy to agree that targeting an IC in a unit was possibly intended to be allowed, I'm not seeing anything in the rules that actually does allow it.


Edited for clarity.

Mind answering the questions I edited in above? I'm now quite confused.

"Choose an IC model that is in Zogworts LOS. If that model is within 18" both players roll a dice."

Pretty sure that is word for word, and RAW that allows you to "Choose an IC model that is in Zogwortsw LOS" no mention of targetting or anything fancy like that, doesn't matter if it's engaged in combat, just that if the choosen model is within 18" roll them dice. Funny enough one could actually target the angry squig model and do it again as it counts as an IC.

@insaniak: (sorry, thought you were discussing retinues) My point is that if the rule stated that you could pick out a sergeant or upgrade character or maybe 'a model holding a flamer' then would it be argued you can't pick out the model in a squad? Of course not. If the rule says you pick an IC, then pick one.

EDIT: nevermind

I see now what you are saying (@insaniak again), the codex rule is very specific in allowing ICs to be specifically targeted. Just my opinion of course, and I think it is individual preference on whether the codex is specific 'enough' to 'change' how models are targeted in regular squads. I for one do believe it is black and white on the issue just like MW, and the rules for picking out models has not changed since 4th ed (except for the IC in close combat while in a retinue).

Reading through this, my question is why any of the shooting rules other than line of sight apply to Zogwart's curse. The power says to choose a model, check a few conditions, and then perform an action on that model.

On the other hand, and IC with a retinue doesn't count as an IC until the retinue is destroyed, so wouldn't be an IC when Zogwart selects a model.

Ah but is it still a model of an IC if we look at their codex?
Counts as an UC is different from a IC model I'm thinking in this situation, I don't have a reference for a retinue around at the moment so it's just speculation.

So if the model itself is an IC it wouldn't matter if it was with a retinue and didn't count as an IC as the model itself still is in fact an IC. I'm thinking again the rule was written very specificaly with the broad words, to stop just this "but you can't because" because 'he can seeeee yooooouuu' *Bzzzap* None of this fancy bussiness.

insaniak wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:'choose an IC model' doesn't single out an IC in a unit?

Not specifically, no.

All it does is tell you to pick an IC as a target of the attack.

So you have 'pick any IC' vs 'Specific ICs (those who have joined a unit) can not be targeted by enemy attacks'

The more specific rule wins.



In order for the curse to allow you to pick an IC in a unit, it would have to specifically over-ride the normal targeting rules.

This is arbitrary RAW fundamentalism at its worst. The description of Zogwort's power--and mindwar for that matter--is specific enough as written. "Choose an IC in LOS" is specific enough--it does not say "Choose an IC that is unattached to a unit" or "Choose an IC that has a toughness of 5 or less" or anything else.

ChrisCP wrote:Pretty sure that is word for word, and RAW that allows you to "Choose an IC model that is in Zogwortsw LOS" no mention of targetting or anything fancy like that,...

That's kind of my point though... the fact that it doesn't mention the usual targeting restrictions suggests that they still apply, because all of the shooting rules have to be followed unless specified otherwise.

If the intent was to allow him to choose a target within a unit, the Curse entry should specifically point that out. 'Choose an IC model that is in Zogwart's LOS. This can include an IC joined to a unit." or words to that effect.

QFT

insaniak wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:Pretty sure that is word for word, and RAW that allows you to "Choose an IC model that is in Zogwortsw LOS" no mention of targetting or anything fancy like that,...

That's kind of my point though... the fact that it doesn't mention the usual targeting restrictions suggests that they still apply, because all of the shooting rules have to be followed unless specified otherwise.

Why? Where are the shooting or further ranged targeting rules invoked? Is the curse a psychic shooting attack?

Please dont ignore the part of a post that shows you're wrong ...

"Is zogworts curse a psychic shooting attack, even though it is never defined as a shooting attack or a psychic shooting attack? Does a psychic power that affects an enemy unit at range automatically become a shooting attack somewhere?
It seems to me as though it is merely a psychic power, with a fully fledged set of rules for its use in its ability description that never refer to the shooting or targeting rules.
The psychic powers that count as psychic shooting attacks in the ork codex both gave 'counts as firing a ranged weapon' as a caveat, both had ranged attack profiles, and have both been specifically identified as psychic shooting attacks in the ork faq."

zoggys curse isnt a psychic shooting attack. just a psychic power.

Bah! I must be getting senile.

It would appear that my head was locked in last edition, where Psychic powers all counted as shooting attacks unless otherwise specified. I haven't been using psykers so far this edition and had completely forgotten that this has changed, and missed Gorkamorka's post that said this:

The rules on page 50 don't say that all psychic powers follow the shooting rules, just that psychic shooting attacks (defined as 'psychic powers which take the form of shooting attacks') do.

... which would have shortened the argument considerably.


So ... until GW decide to FAQ it to match Mind War, it would appear that Zogwart is not bound by the shooting rules, in which case LOS is the only restriction on his power.

I'm going to wander off and see if I can find a leftover slice of humble pie rattling around in the bottom of the fridge.