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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 06:08:32
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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I'd like to hear peoples opinions.
Using 2 Heavy slots to shore up my IG's horde matchup. What is the best option.
4x Griffons
2x Leman Russ Eradicator's
2x Manticores
I'm leaning towards the Leman Russ's for their survivability and cover busting.
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My 40k Theory Blog
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 06:16:15
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Colossus can do the same and is AP 3 for some marine busting and cover busting.
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Comparing tournament records is another form of e-peen measuring.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 10:18:39
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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Yes, but AV12+priority target doesn't work out very well most of the time. I like the russes.
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Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right
New to the game and can't win? Read this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 10:19:53
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God
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Anti horde =
Chimera with 2 heavy flamers
veteran with 2 flamer , 1 hvy flamer.
Thats very anti hord o_O
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ʳʷ ᵖˡᵃʸ ᵖᵃᵘˢᵉ ˢᵗᵒᵖ ᶠᶠ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 10:54:25
Subject: Re:IG anti-horde
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Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader
Northern Virginia
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honestly for a heavy slot something like griffons or manticores are much better than collossi and exterminators. That being said I think a valk with missile pods is an even better choice. Not only an it dish out tremendous anti horde firepower, but yo ucan also mount a PCS with 4 flamers in there to if you like.
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"Paranoia is a very reassuring state of mind. If you think they are after you, you think you matter" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 11:20:11
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Wicked Warp Spider
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Thing is, eradicators and griffons are both very cool, but very specialised - they won't be worth it against 3+ saves, and can't bust vehicles. So using them depends on your regular opponents (obviously). Colossi suffer a similar problem, except they're useful against marines - but you pay for what you get!
Manticores may have a couple drawbacks, but they can massacre hard targets as well as soft. Admittedly not great against marines, but multiple-wound models will suffer ID and it should wreck vehicles.
I advocate 1 manticore and 1 colossus. Both templates, one is high strength and AP4, other is low strength but AP3 ignore cover. I think that covers your bases pretty well.
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Eldar Corsairs: 4000 pts
Imperial Guard: 4000 pts
Corregidor 700 pts
Acontecimento 400 pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 13:23:27
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
Essen, Ruhr
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I'd probably take the Griffons. With the number of wounds a barrage can inflict, even Marines will not be safe. The Manticore however is a very close contender, as it can damage vehicles, too, and will often generate just as many wounds. It's just a little more inaccurate.
LunaHound, why two HF? You cannot fire both when you move, so your opponent would have to position himself within range of both. Backup?
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"Whenever the literary German dives into a sentence, that is the last you are going to see of him till he emerges on the other side of the Atlantic with his verb in his mouth." S. L. Clemens
All hail Ollanius Pius! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 14:19:55
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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I would say manticores are going to be your best bet. They bring the whole dual purpose thing to the table and they have the potential to front load damage early in the game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 16:32:26
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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From the choices you've offered, I'd have to say the four griffons. You'll wound hordes on 2+, they mostly won't get armour saves, you get to reroll the scatter dice and you get 2 extra pieplates compared to the other options.
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Fun and Fluff for the Win! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 17:52:44
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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Griffon's don't really go dual purpose though. So against a lot of armies they can be almost useless.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 18:11:14
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Wicked Warp Spider
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CptZach wrote:Griffon's don't really go dual purpose though. So against a lot of armies they can be almost useless.
I agree with this. A manticore will do just as much damage against hordes as 2 griffons because of D3 blasts - also, it can fire directly if it need to, with no minimum range and has a longer max range, and isn't open-topped. All this, and it's also a great vehicle killer, so if your army comes up against armour, you're still golden!
Griffon vs colossus is a matter of opinion and opponents. Griffon vs manticore, I'd take the manticore.
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Eldar Corsairs: 4000 pts
Imperial Guard: 4000 pts
Corregidor 700 pts
Acontecimento 400 pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 18:47:29
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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The manticore does have the worst survivability of all 3 choices though. As long as you hide it behind infantry and get cover saves, you should be good though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 21:12:09
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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For pure anti-horde, which is what the OP was about, my money is still with four griffons.
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Fun and Fluff for the Win! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 21:28:18
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Oh, this is quite easy as far as I'm concerned...
2x manticores have been a core of my list for the last few months.
Their beauty lies in their obvious anti-hordeness mixed with one of the better anti-vehicle shots in the arsenal.
When firing at anti-horde remember that as long as you can safely remain stationary, and as long as your target is outside of min range, you can go indirect and ignore any cover they are claiming that isn't special rule or area terrain granted. This shot also hands the unit a pin test at -1.
Same goes for vehicles. As long as its out of minimum range and you can safely stand still, you can take your strength 10 shot at the vehicles side armor.
People sometimes forget that the accuracy of barrage ordnance is unaffected by the "indirect shot". If you have LOS to your target, you deduct your BS from the scatter distance.
One other aside, the multiple shots while fired indirect are not placed using the battery rules. the battery rules come into effect when a unit with 'multiple' barrage weapons fires. The manticore is a single barrage weapon with multiple shots. don't let people try to make you fold your scatters onto the first large blast when you are shooting at vehicles.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 22:23:14
Subject: Re:IG anti-horde
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Stabbin' Skarboy
123 fake street
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Pie plates all the way, that is to say manticors. Regualr russ is great for it's survavability, espesialy against hoards with little AT capibilities.
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"I can envision a world with no war, pain, or strife, were peace is constant, then I envision attacking that world because they'd never see it coming."
- Orks, 4175 points
- The face of an opponent when you lose five dozen models and say "that's it?", priceless. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 22:47:13
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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Shep wrote:Oh, this is quite easy as far as I'm concerned...
2x manticores have been a core of my list for the last few months.
Their beauty lies in their obvious anti-hordeness mixed with one of the better anti-vehicle shots in the arsenal.
When firing at anti-horde remember that as long as you can safely remain stationary, and as long as your target is outside of min range, you can go indirect and ignore any cover they are claiming that isn't special rule or area terrain granted. This shot also hands the unit a pin test at -1.
Same goes for vehicles. As long as its out of minimum range and you can safely stand still, you can take your strength 10 shot at the vehicles side armor.
People sometimes forget that the accuracy of barrage ordnance is unaffected by the "indirect shot". If you have LOS to your target, you deduct your BS from the scatter distance.
One other aside, the multiple shots while fired indirect are not placed using the battery rules. the battery rules come into effect when a unit with 'multiple' barrage weapons fires. The manticore is a single barrage weapon with multiple shots. don't let people try to make you fold your scatters onto the first large blast when you are shooting at vehicles.
What page are the rules for firing a weapon with multiple blasts on again?
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Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right
New to the game and can't win? Read this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 23:28:39
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I agree with Shep. Manticores all the way. They can fire without LOS so you can hide them behind buildings or rocks and with D3 templates have the potential to fire off more templates then the 4 Griffons. Manticores can shoot vehicles with Strength 10 +2d6 take the highest for ordinance and they also insta kill multiwound toughness 4 and 5 models. So they good versus nob bikers and thunderwolves also.
Don't neglect non heavy support choices for anti horde.
Take hull heavy flamers on all your vehicles that can take them does very well for anti horde as well.
Valkyrie with Missle pods is pretty good anti horde as well if your not maxing out on vendettas and doubles as a fast transport if there are no hordes to shoot at.
If you don't like Valkyries, Hellhound with a hull multimelta is a decent choice since it ignores cover and has a multimelta for anti tank.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/18 15:02:11
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Dakka Veteran
Arkahm
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Kirika wrote:I agree with Shep. Manticores all the way. They can fire without LOS so you can hide them behind buildings or rocks and with D3 templates have the potential to fire off more templates then the 4 Griffons. Manticores can shoot vehicles with Strength 10 +2d6 take the highest for ordinance and they also insta kill multiwound toughness 4 and 5 models. So they good versus nob bikers and thunderwolves also.
Don't neglect non heavy support choices for anti horde.
Take hull heavy flamers on all your vehicles that can take them does very well for anti horde as well.
Valkyrie with Missle pods is pretty good anti horde as well if your not maxing out on vendettas and doubles as a fast transport if there are no hordes to shoot at.
If you don't like Valkyries, Hellhound with a hull multimelta is a decent choice since it ignores cover and has a multimelta for anti tank.
For horde? Just mass footsloggers with flamers and heavy bolters
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Orkeosaurus wrote:But can he see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?
xxmatt85 wrote:Brains for the brain god!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/18 17:57:49
Subject: Re:IG anti-horde
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Preacher of the Emperor
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As a straight SM player, I'd say take the Manticores. High strength, decent AP shots against hordes that can circumvent cover and a well placed barrage can quickly eradicate small MEQ squads and clustered vehicles.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/18 18:24:08
Subject: Re:IG anti-horde
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
UK
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You can get decent-strength template/blast weapnary elsewhere in a IG FOC for anti-horde but the Manticore does serve the dual purpose of anti-horde & anti-tank well.
Because of its massive range you can really place it in the back corner and all those foot-slogging hordes have a hard time even reaching it. In reguards to outflankers/deep strikers & infiltrators a 20-30 man blob platoon (Autocannons are my fav, compliments the str10 missile-tank well and is cheap!) can easily fill up the spaces. You can actually leave a bit of a gap around the tank to tease risky deep-strike mishaps & also to increase that melta/charge threat range.
Give it a hull heavy flamer for when things do get close. Some tanks do work well with a h.bolter, my autocannon & plasma vets love thier Multi-laser and h.bolter dakka chimera but when you have a manticore, stuff comes to you.
Also, side armour barrage shots. So very nice.
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H.B.M.C. wrote:Friend of mine just sent me this:
"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ." Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!
Heh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/18 23:52:56
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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And manticores can also fire on the move, as compared to the griffon, and fire direct also, unlike the griffon.
heck with 2 HS slots, take 1 manticore and 2 griffons..there best of both worlds!!!
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40K 5th ed W/L/D
65/4/6, 10/2/1, 10/3/0, 2/0/1, 0/1/1
40K 6th ed W/L/D
1/0/0
WHFB 8th ed WHFB
Empire: 12/3/2, Lizardmen: 16/3/2 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/19 01:51:37
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Stabbin' Skarboy
123 fake street
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Cambak wrote:
For horde? Just mass footsloggers with flamers and heavy bolters
So your solution to hoard is............hoard? I like it. But seriously manticors all the way.
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"I can envision a world with no war, pain, or strife, were peace is constant, then I envision attacking that world because they'd never see it coming."
- Orks, 4175 points
- The face of an opponent when you lose five dozen models and say "that's it?", priceless. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/19 02:34:31
Subject: Re:IG anti-horde
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Fixture of Dakka
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"And manticores can also fire on the move,..."?
how? not starting an arguement, just curious. i figured since it fires Ord. it would have to remain stationary.
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"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC
"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/19 02:42:46
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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huh? ordnance can fire on the move since 4th ed 40k....check p58 on the BRB....
the manticore is not an indirect fire tank only..hence can fire direct while moving...
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40K 5th ed W/L/D
65/4/6, 10/2/1, 10/3/0, 2/0/1, 0/1/1
40K 6th ed W/L/D
1/0/0
WHFB 8th ed WHFB
Empire: 12/3/2, Lizardmen: 16/3/2 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/19 02:48:06
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Valks did a good job on chewing up my boyz when i played against an IG player once. Then those damndable vets came out and made it worse.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/19 03:54:22
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Malicious Mutant Scum
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One manticore and two girffons. The manticore can target vehicles, and three large blasts will decimate almost any hoard. The griffons are good and give balance plus lots of AP4.
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No- it's your turn to die. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/19 05:50:05
Subject: Re:IG anti-horde
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Fixture of Dakka
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"check p58 on the BRB...."
i was. "...so only vehicles that remained stationary may fire an ordnance barrage weapon..."
so if it fires directly, it can move and fire? but if it fires indirectly, it can't move and fire? that doesn't make sense. if it fires directly of indirectly, it's still an ordanance barrage weapon. but that's how it sounds on pg. 58. like i said, not trying to argue, just wanting to clarify.
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"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC
"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/19 06:17:01
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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You got it perfectly..when fired in indirect mode, it remains stationary. if it's on the move, it fires like a direct fire weapon.
read the 2nd paragraph under the ordance barrage entry..."when fired directly, they are treated EXACTLY like a normal ordnance weapon"...(in my opinion this paragraph be highlighted or in bold lettering..too many people miss this fine print!!!)
No problem! The choice of staying still to fire indirectly or to move and fire directly may be a critical one. Obviously firing on the move gives you the advantage of mobile firepower with no minimum range, but firing indirectly gives you the advantage of hitting side armor as well as ignoring cover saves if the target is hiding behind something, with the disadvantage of staying put and a minimum range in most cases.
Hope this clarifies things, and you will see basilisks and manticores with more light, as they CAN provide mobile firepower if you want them to.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/19 06:18:02
40K 5th ed W/L/D
65/4/6, 10/2/1, 10/3/0, 2/0/1, 0/1/1
40K 6th ed W/L/D
1/0/0
WHFB 8th ed WHFB
Empire: 12/3/2, Lizardmen: 16/3/2 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/19 11:54:04
Subject: Re:IG anti-horde
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
UK
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The Barrage part is the part that prohibits movement. Its the shooting of massively high-arcing shots across the battlefield to rain down explosive death that requires a stationary firing platform.
Shooting at targets in a relatively direct manner, as per the rule book, means you can shoot it ignoring the barrage bit meaning you can shoot & move as per your vehicle type.
But, just like to add (or pose a question), you can still shoot as a barrage weapon & as long as you have LOS, you still get to deduct BS from scatters??
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H.B.M.C. wrote:Friend of mine just sent me this:
"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ." Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!
Heh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/19 13:04:45
Subject: IG anti-horde
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Absolutely. This is clearly stated on the last paragraph under the ordnance barrage section on page 58, where only when the target is out of sightis when BS is not deducted.
In other words, firing indirect at a legal target in LOS should be the best choice if you do not move, as you bypass cover, and hit side armor if the target is a vehicle.
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40K 5th ed W/L/D
65/4/6, 10/2/1, 10/3/0, 2/0/1, 0/1/1
40K 6th ed W/L/D
1/0/0
WHFB 8th ed WHFB
Empire: 12/3/2, Lizardmen: 16/3/2 |
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