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 FlingitNow wrote:

You can double up on rune of penetration, which is now much better, as it allows the +1 strength per rune, AND a reroll of a single die.

This probably highlights why you've got the opinion of the book that you have. If you buy 2 runes of penetration you're only at +1 strength and you get 1 reroll to wound in the entire battle. You either haven't read the book and only read the rumours or you haven't had a good look at the book.

As stated you rarely saw a Gyrocopter before at 140 points they are now better and 60 points (43%) cheaper. I expect you'll see lots of them. They've just become the best chaff in the game. This is a good and deep book and I expect it to go top of the Tournament scene.

You buy 1 rune of penetration for + 1 strength.

The second says you get +1 strength and a reroll.

Therefore, when you buy 2, you get both effects.


Best chaff in the game? Nowhere near it.

The best chaff in the game is, has been, and will be, for the foreseeable future, the beast of nurgle.

You don't get both effects by buying 2 read the book. It tells you exactly what you get when you have 2 runes of penetration (not what you get for having a 2nd rune as you assert).

Good point on Beasts. But they are slow comparatively and won't do brutal ranged damage like the Copter. Which makes them easier to ignore. For instance a dwarf army can entirely ignore a beast.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You don't get both effects by buying 2 read the book. It tells you exactly what you get when you have 2 runes of penetration (not what you get for having a 2nd rune as you assert).

Good point on Beasts. But they are slow comparatively and won't do brutal ranged damage like the Copter. Which makes them easier to ignore. For instance a dwarf army can entirely ignore a beast.

The wording says 1 rune increases it's penetration by 1. And two, ALSO increases it's strength by 1 AND allows the reroll of 1 failed roll to wound.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
You don't get both effects by buying 2 read the book. It tells you exactly what you get when you have 2 runes of penetration (not what you get for having a 2nd rune as you assert).

Good point on Beasts. But they are slow comparatively and won't do brutal ranged damage like the Copter. Which makes them easier to ignore. For instance a dwarf army can entirely ignore a beast.

The wording says 1 rune increases it's penetration by 1. And two, ALSO increases it's strength by 1 AND allows the reroll of 1 failed roll to wound.

That's not at all how it's worded, I suggest rereading the rune section - it's pretty clearly non cumulative.

As for the book, a fair amount changed but gun lines still prevail. Core, in particular, is a load better - 13 points gets you a crossbow with no stand and shoot penalty on a T4 4+ model which has a 5++ parry in the first round of combat. That's pretty brutal honestly. Strollaz as could really change how Dwarfs play, as it's now possible to get close with a lot of units immediately. Hammerers are pretty silly IMO, they're an easy auto include for any player. Cinderblast bombs are ridiculous on Irondrakes, as they can stand and shoot at full BS thanks to dwarf crafted and having range count as 8", whilst also throwing a stone thrower in the same reaction. Lists will be a little less stationary IMO but yes, expect gun lines to be live and kicking.

Having 2 runes of penetration gives you +1 strength and a reroll. Please read the actual book it is very clear what 2 Runes of penetration does. Even if it wasn't if they're charging you 40 points for +1 strength how could you possibly think they would only charge you 10 points for +1 strength and a one off reroll? Seriously read the book. There are lots of options in this book that are good.

Will gunlines go away? No that is still an option and a good one. But there are other good ways to play this book. And Gyrocopter will be everywhere!

 FlingitNow wrote:
Having 2 runes of penetration gives you +1 strength and a reroll. Please read the actual book it is very clear what 2 Runes of penetration does. Even if it wasn't if they're charging you 40 points for +1 strength how could you possibly think they would only charge you 10 points for +1 strength and a one off reroll? Seriously read the book. There are lots of options in this book that are good.

Will gunlines go away? No that is still an option and a good one. But there are other good ways to play this book. And Gyrocopter will be everywhere!

I have read and reread the actual book. If you read the other runes, the effect is the same. Each paragraph is a separate effect. Rune number 1 grants effect A. Rune Number 2 grants effect B. Each effect is separate and cumulative. To get both effects you pay for the price of the second effect and you get effect A and B.

As for Gunlines, I know they won't go away. But they were, and still are the best option for dwarves by a country mile, and then some.

Seriously read the book 1 rune gives A, 2 runes gives B not A+B. How can you possibly think it is 10 points for +1S and a reroll when it is 40 points for +1S. Just read the book.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Seriously read the book 1 rune gives A, 2 runes gives B not A+B. How can you possibly think it is 10 points for +1S and a reroll when it is 40 points for +1S. Just read the book.

Read the rules for runes. Specifically number 5. Runes can be combined for cumulative effects. Therefore, purchasing two runes, provides you with both effects.

Have you actually read that part. It tells you the rune tells you whether the effects are cumulative and the rune of pen does not say it is so it isn't.

avenger mate, please read the book, there right

 FlingitNow wrote:
Have you actually read that part. It tells you the rune tells you whether the effects are cumulative and the rune of pen does not say it is so it isn't.

At which point does rune of penetration say the results are added? Answer it doesn't. So therefore, according to you, the second grants neither effect.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Have you actually read that part. It tells you the rune tells you whether the effects are cumulative and the rune of pen does not say it is so it isn't.

At which point does rune of penetration say the results are added? Answer it doesn't. So therefore, according to you, the second grants neither effect.

If the explanation of runes says it has to be mentioned in the rune if it is cumulative, then the standard rune can be assumed to say "is not cumulative." Since you know... that's exactly what that statement means.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Have you actually read that part. It tells you the rune tells you whether the effects are cumulative and the rune of pen does not say it is so it isn't.

At which point does rune of penetration say the results are added? Answer it doesn't. So therefore, according to you, the second grants neither effect.

It doesn't say the effects are added so they are not. Just as point 5 instructs, you want to see a cumulative rune check Rune of Speed of Rune of Might. So the result isn't cumulative instead it is just telling us what happens when we have 2 runes of penetration. Again you haven't answered why you think that they would charge you 10 points for +1S and a reroll when they charge you 40 points for just +1S. Seriously read the actual book not the rumours or just stuff you've made up out of thin air.

Avenger is really just trying to find a way to bash dwarves it seems at this point

I concur with above, looking at the rune system now it seems alot cleaner than before and that's a + in my book, one of the things I'm most excited about now though is actually being ableto use my deamons slayer against... Well a greater deamon,sure iI will probably get smashed still but it will be epic!!

You can build a Daemon Slayer that should kill the 1+ Save Nurgle Prince in a single round of combat! Master Rune of Swiftness, Grudge Rune, Rune of Might.

So he goes first (and should have Hatred) hits on a 4+ with rerolls wounds on a 2+ with rerolls, leaving on a 6+ armour and forcing a reroll on 5+ ward then does D3 wounds (average 4.32 wounds). Against a Thirster he's even better hitting on a 3+ and leaving no armour just the 5+ ward he's being forced to reroll (average 6.15 wounds done to BT).

I love that Daemon Slayers are actually pretty good against greater daemons. The above slayer is just 215 points

I will admit that the Armor pen upgrade is handy for things like Ironbreakers who can now, essentially, stand as (shorter) Phoenix Guard in a dwarf line.

3+/ 4++ (in first round/ 5++ in later turns) plus str 4 AP attacks is a solid anvil. Plus, dwarves getting +1str on the charge (while silly) makes many units incredibly dangerous.

Small changes are a step forward, still disappointed by the lack of versatility.

I don't have my copy of the book yet, but i'm wondering about the details of this "attack first when charging" rule.
Could someone who has read the book shed some light on two questions please?
Do the dwarves strike first if they are armed with Great Weapons?
What happens when they charge an enemy who is also entitled to strike first, such as Elves?

Dwarves don't get to attack first when charging. That rule doesn't exist.

Must have been a rumor. I have to stop reading rumors about this and just read the book when it arrives.

Well I've had great fun so far in my two games with the new book and I think its definately brought more options

The thing is ALL dwarf combat infantry got better, for an extra point or two in some cases, and the bonuses are built for short combats now with hatred, relentless and shield wall all being 1st round only bonuses. More versatile banner runes also help the infantry

The slight exceptions to this are ironbreakers and slayers which are still more suited to a longer grind. Love the death blow rule btw "If we're goin' down we're taking you all with us!"

Anywho, getting to the point...

The new book gives players who don't want to run a gun-line the chance to actually win some combats. Players who want to gun-line will still gun-line, now paying more for war machines.

 Uzi Toting Monkeys wrote:
Players who want to gun-line will still gun-line, now paying more for war machines.

While I hear the warmachines got stronger too, that still means harass against warmachines is going to be a much bigger problem for gunline armies. This is a good thing.

Grudge throwers got worse with no S5 option. Bolt throwers are basically pointless now. Cannons are more expensive but had already got the boost from 8th Ed. Organ guns are the same price for marginally worse but they can now take Runes which makes them a better choice over all. Though they share a slot with Irondrakes who do basically the same job whilst also being able to fight. So I think the gunline will shift a little to more infantry shooting less war machines.

But with Gyrocopter and possibly even slayers running interference. I think it will play differently it will suit Andy Spiers' more aggressive gunline play style, though I could see him going a different way and doing something different to everyone else.

A flat gunline tempts me. But I am wanting to do something a little different with the book too just to show you can (like I did with my DE monster mash).

Pervertdhermit wrote:
I will admit that the Armor pen upgrade is handy for things like Ironbreakers who can now, essentially, stand as (shorter) Phoenix Guard in a dwarf line.

3+/ 4++ (in first round/ 5++ in later turns) plus str 4 AP attacks is a solid anvil. Plus, dwarves getting +1str on the charge (while silly) makes many units incredibly dangerous.

Small changes are a step forward, still disappointed by the lack of versatility.

They don't get 4++, Shieldwall of Gromril replaces Shieldwall, it's not an additional bonus.

Anyone think slayers are good now? theyre certainly better at the same cost with more options and deathblow.
Im awfully tempted to start a slayer army. barebones core max slayers GO



Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisAsmadi wrote:

Pervertdhermit wrote:
I will admit that the Armor pen upgrade is handy for things like Ironbreakers who can now, essentially, stand as (shorter) Phoenix Guard in a dwarf line.

3+/ 4++ (in first round/ 5++ in later turns) plus str 4 AP attacks is a solid anvil. Plus, dwarves getting +1str on the charge (while silly) makes many units incredibly dangerous.

Small changes are a step forward, still disappointed by the lack of versatility.

They don't get 4++, Shieldwall of Gromril replaces Shieldwall, it's not an additional bonus.

Yes they do. Shieldwall is a bonus to regular parry for the first turn of a received charge.
Gromril Shieldwall is a +2 bonus to regular parry on first turn of a received charge. Therefore 4++ first turn, then 6++ for the rest.

Yes they do. Shieldwall is a bonus to regular parry for the first turn of a received charge.
Gromril Shieldwall is a +2 bonus to regular parry on first turn of a received charge. Therefore 4++ first turn, then 6++ for the rest.

How on earth have you come to that conclusion? Where does it say ANYWHERE that you receive a +2 bonus for party? Also how can you think that it only lasts for 1 round when it specifically tells you not just when charged? Please tell how on earth you've come to tthis conclusion from the rule?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yes they do. Shieldwall is a bonus to regular parry for the first turn of a received charge.
Gromril Shieldwall is a +2 bonus to regular parry on first turn of a received charge. Therefore 4++ first turn, then 6++ for the rest.

How on earth have you come to that conclusion? Where does it say ANYWHERE that you receive a +2 bonus for party? Also how can you think that it only lasts for 1 round when it specifically tells you not just when charged? Please tell how on earth you've come to tthis conclusion from the rule?

Woah.
Woah.
Woah.
Calm down.
Misread the ruling, turns out I'm wrong. Chilllll

Also: came to this thread to talk about dwarfs, left shouted at for making a mistake.

You told someone who was correct that they were wrong whilst claiming a rule that is not even remotely close to what the rule says. If you're going to correct someone on rules read those rules first.

As for slayers I think they are definitely worth it now. You can go slayer heavy if so a unit with Ungrim and 3 runes of slowness could be pretty hilarious (double attacks for everyone that dies). I also like them as little interference units 10 guys and a banner of slowness for redirects and a nasty little speed bump. Or get aggressive with strollaz and get in their face early.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You told someone who was correct that they were wrong whilst claiming a rule that is not even remotely close to what the rule says. If you're going to correct someone on rules read those rules first.

As for slayers I think they are definitely worth it now. You can go slayer heavy if so a unit with Ungrim and 3 runes of slowness could be pretty hilarious (double attacks for everyone that dies). I also like them as little interference units 10 guys and a banner of slowness for redirects and a nasty little speed bump. Or get aggressive with strollaz and get in their face early.

If you're going to point out the fact I'm also wrong, don't be an arse about it.
OT I do like the look of the new slayers yeah. Looking forward to deciding on a slayer list or a shieldbearer throng list. I do agree with you that you can make more varying lists with this book, but I think what is trying to be said is there is only really one competitive, always good way to play them, and unfortunately that build is very similar to the last one.

Blood lance you're the one looking foolish right now. You were wrong, and you were trying to correct someone how was right. I'd just walk away from this one as FlingitNow has every right to be testy with someone who can't be bothered to read the rules properly before they try to correct someone else.