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Made in th
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




If I can't do anything to shut down markerlights why should Tau be able to shut down my psykers?
Having no psychic powers is not that bad for Tau, I remember last Edition when Tau could literally pull of the effects of psychic powers just without rolling for them. It's not as bad now, but it's also not a problem for Tau as they're one of the most durable armies in the game already. You have drones to catch smite (and who uses smite anyway? With my Daemons, DG and CSM there's hardly a situation where I'd use smite...)
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Sgt. Cortez wrote:
If I can't do anything to shut down markerlights why should Tau be able to shut down my psykers?
Having no psychic powers is not that bad for Tau, I remember last Edition when Tau could literally pull of the effects of psychic powers just without rolling for them. It's not as bad now, but it's also not a problem for Tau as they're one of the most durable armies in the game already. You have drones to catch smite (and who uses smite anyway? With my Daemons, DG and CSM there's hardly a situation where I'd use smite...)


Bad analogy. Markerlights is closer to and they shall know no fear or am order or whatever other army wide rules they get. Marker lights are not equivalent to psykic powers.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Lance845 wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
If I can't do anything to shut down markerlights why should Tau be able to shut down my psykers?
Having no psychic powers is not that bad for Tau, I remember last Edition when Tau could literally pull of the effects of psychic powers just without rolling for them. It's not as bad now, but it's also not a problem for Tau as they're one of the most durable armies in the game already. You have drones to catch smite (and who uses smite anyway? With my Daemons, DG and CSM there's hardly a situation where I'd use smite...)


Bad analogy. Markerlights is closer to and they shall know no fear or am order or whatever other army wide rules they get. Marker lights are not equivalent to psykic powers.


Is it now?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Is it not? Psykers are not unique to any faction that gets them. Astra militarum orders are unique to am just like markerlights are unique to tau. Mob rules and waaghs for orks. Synapse and shadow in the warp for nids reanimation protocols for necrons and subterrainian assault for gsc.

You can't point at markerlights and say "see! The tau have psykers!"


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Markerlights are just a weapon that buffs instead of dealing damage. It is not a psychic power.

What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Canoptek Wraith





I'm inclined to agree with Lance on this one.

Markerlights really don't seem comparable to psychic powers.


If you want an example of 'Psychic powers that aren't actually Psychic powers', I'd cite C'tan Powers.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I'm inclined to agree with Lance on this one.

Markerlights really don't seem comparable to psychic powers.


If you want an example of 'Psychic powers that aren't actually Psychic powers', I'd cite C'tan Powers.


That would be closer.

However, there are some noticeable differences -

- They are not done in the psychic phase

- They tend to be harder to pull off than proper psychic powers, as C'tan get no casting bonuses unless its a Vault.

- No buffs or debuffs, which limits C'tan power utility by a considerable margin.

- C'tan still can't deny. Which is weird, because you'd think they'd be able to use their reality warping trick to counter the warp's reality warping trick. Like, a C'tan sees a psyker trying to break the laws of physics and he's like "Stop psyker scum, you have violated the law!" and presses the Undo button. Now, you could make the argument that you can't deny C'tan powers, which is fair, but the problem is though that you are paying a lot more for a C'tan than a psyker for powers that aren't even that amazing in turns of effectiveness who can't even counter powers like its cheaper warp based counter-part could.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/07/06 16:55:17


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





 Lance845 wrote:
Is it not? Psykers are not unique to any faction that gets them. Astra militarum orders are unique to am just like markerlights are unique to tau. Mob rules and waaghs for orks. Synapse and shadow in the warp for nids reanimation protocols for necrons and subterrainian assault for gsc.

You can't point at markerlights and say "see! The tau have psykers!"


They have quite a few rules that do the same job as psykers, and markerlights are one of them. Literally the only thing they are missing out on is a deny - which is not worth that much anyways.

Drager wrote:
I'd heard there would be a clatter, then perhaps a hiss, but that's not what it's like. We'd all been told that these things lurked in vents and crevices, that they could sneak up on a man no matter how alert, but that just wasn't what happened. We saw them coming, well, we heard them first, an ear-splitting boom as they accelerated across the plain. They must have been 2 miles away when we heard the crack, but we barely had time to lift our weapons before they were on us and then... past us. Running faster than I could follow. They didn't attack, didn't even try and it was then, as the whole platoon stared after them that a dread crept through me and I turned to see that which they had been running from.

-Infantryman Collins, 5th Umbra Rifles
 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Jidmah wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Is it not? Psykers are not unique to any faction that gets them. Astra militarum orders are unique to am just like markerlights are unique to tau. Mob rules and waaghs for orks. Synapse and shadow in the warp for nids reanimation protocols for necrons and subterrainian assault for gsc.

You can't point at markerlights and say "see! The tau have psykers!"


They have quite a few rules that do the same job as psykers, and markerlights are one of them. Literally the only thing they are missing out on is a deny - which is not worth that much anyways.


There's two really great denial units to my knowledge, one is the rogue psyker coven that can throw 3 dice to deny and the other is the MoP that can deny 2 times and force mortals on pashs

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Canoptek Wraith





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

That would be closer.

However, there are some noticeable differences -

- They are not done in the psychic phase

- They tend to be harder to pull off than proper psychic powers, as C'tan get no casting bonuses unless its a Vault.

- No buffs or debuffs, which limits C'tan power utility by a considerable margin.

- C'tan still can't deny. Which is weird, because you'd think they'd be able to use their reality warping trick to counter the warp's reality warping trick. Like, a C'tan sees a psyker trying to break the laws of physics and he's like "Stop psyker scum, you have violated the law!" and presses the Undo button. Now, you could make the argument that you can't deny C'tan powers, which is fair, but the problem is though that you are paying a lot more for a C'tan than a psyker for powers that aren't even that amazing in turns of effectiveness who can't even counter powers like its cheaper warp based counter-part could.


Oh, I'm not trying to say that C'tan powers are especially good or powerful, just that they seem much closer to psychic powers in general design than Markerlights.

And yeah, they're pretty one-note. Basically just 6 different ways to cause Mortal Wounds.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

I would actually replace seismic assault with a utility power, and merge Cosmic Fire with Sky of Falling Stars (because they are pretty much the same ability) to have another utility power. Not sure what to give them, but maybe move Entropic Strike over to act as a unit buff and introduce something that gives an invul save.

And before anyone goes "but free unit wide Entropic Strikes would be OP", Null Zone and that Tzeentch equivalent says hello. And those are better than Entropic Strike because you don't have to be in CC to benefit from it, so it balances out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/06 20:14:38


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Is it not? Psykers are not unique to any faction that gets them. Astra militarum orders are unique to am just like markerlights are unique to tau. Mob rules and waaghs for orks. Synapse and shadow in the warp for nids reanimation protocols for necrons and subterrainian assault for gsc.

You can't point at markerlights and say "see! The tau have psykers!"


They have quite a few rules that do the same job as psykers, and markerlights are one of them. Literally the only thing they are missing out on is a deny - which is not worth that much anyways.


There's two really great denial units to my knowledge, one is the rogue psyker coven that can throw 3 dice to deny and the other is the MoP that can deny 2 times and force mortals on pashs


I would say they do things far closer to am orders. Especially because they dont cause multitudes of mortal wounds. Again, markerlights are not psychic powers. They dont teleport blobs of dudes. They dont cause mw. They dont allow you to do aoes or add auras or cause leadership penalties. Markerlights are not psychic powers. Assuming ml are like psychic powers is either a sign of a lack of understanding of most armies actual power lists or a lack of understanding of markerlights.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Lance845 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Is it not? Psykers are not unique to any faction that gets them. Astra militarum orders are unique to am just like markerlights are unique to tau. Mob rules and waaghs for orks. Synapse and shadow in the warp for nids reanimation protocols for necrons and subterrainian assault for gsc.

You can't point at markerlights and say "see! The tau have psykers!"


They have quite a few rules that do the same job as psykers, and markerlights are one of them. Literally the only thing they are missing out on is a deny - which is not worth that much anyways.


There's two really great denial units to my knowledge, one is the rogue psyker coven that can throw 3 dice to deny and the other is the MoP that can deny 2 times and force mortals on pashs


I would say they do things far closer to am orders. Especially because they dont cause multitudes of mortal wounds. Again, markerlights are not psychic powers. They dont teleport blobs of dudes. They dont cause mw. They dont allow you to do aoes or add auras or cause leadership penalties. Markerlights are not psychic powers. Assuming ml are like psychic powers is either a sign of a lack of understanding of most armies actual power lists or a lack of understanding of markerlights.


So the don't give additional BS? Oh wait they do which is literally one of the better powers....

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Not Online!!! wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Is it not? Psykers are not unique to any faction that gets them. Astra militarum orders are unique to am just like markerlights are unique to tau. Mob rules and waaghs for orks. Synapse and shadow in the warp for nids reanimation protocols for necrons and subterrainian assault for gsc.

You can't point at markerlights and say "see! The tau have psykers!"


They have quite a few rules that do the same job as psykers, and markerlights are one of them. Literally the only thing they are missing out on is a deny - which is not worth that much anyways.


There's two really great denial units to my knowledge, one is the rogue psyker coven that can throw 3 dice to deny and the other is the MoP that can deny 2 times and force mortals on pashs


I would say they do things far closer to am orders. Especially because they dont cause multitudes of mortal wounds. Again, markerlights are not psychic powers. They dont teleport blobs of dudes. They dont cause mw. They dont allow you to do aoes or add auras or cause leadership penalties. Markerlights are not psychic powers. Assuming ml are like psychic powers is either a sign of a lack of understanding of most armies actual power lists or a lack of understanding of markerlights.


So the don't give additional BS? Oh wait they do which is literally one of the better powers....


Ah right. Tyranid primes give a +1 to hit for warriors. I guess the unit tyranid prime is a psychic power.

We all know whats important about psychic powers is if they mimic the effect of any other ability in the game.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in us
Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot




USA

 Lance845 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Is it not? Psykers are not unique to any faction that gets them. Astra militarum orders are unique to am just like markerlights are unique to tau. Mob rules and waaghs for orks. Synapse and shadow in the warp for nids reanimation protocols for necrons and subterrainian assault for gsc.

You can't point at markerlights and say "see! The tau have psykers!"


They have quite a few rules that do the same job as psykers, and markerlights are one of them. Literally the only thing they are missing out on is a deny - which is not worth that much anyways.


There's two really great denial units to my knowledge, one is the rogue psyker coven that can throw 3 dice to deny and the other is the MoP that can deny 2 times and force mortals on pashs


I would say they do things far closer to am orders. Especially because they dont cause multitudes of mortal wounds. Again, markerlights are not psychic powers. They dont teleport blobs of dudes. They dont cause mw. They dont allow you to do aoes or add auras or cause leadership penalties. Markerlights are not psychic powers. Assuming ml are like psychic powers is either a sign of a lack of understanding of most armies actual power lists or a lack of understanding of markerlights.


So the don't give additional BS? Oh wait they do which is literally one of the better powers....


Ah right. Tyranid primes give a +1 to hit for warriors. I guess the unit tyranid prime is a psychic power.

We all know whats important about psychic powers is if they mimic the effect of any other ability in the game.


Also 5 markerlights is very rarely worth it, so most of the time it might not even exist.

"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Spoiler:
 Lance845 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Is it not? Psykers are not unique to any faction that gets them. Astra militarum orders are unique to am just like markerlights are unique to tau. Mob rules and waaghs for orks. Synapse and shadow in the warp for nids reanimation protocols for necrons and subterrainian assault for gsc.

You can't point at markerlights and say "see! The tau have psykers!"


They have quite a few rules that do the same job as psykers, and markerlights are one of them. Literally the only thing they are missing out on is a deny - which is not worth that much anyways.


There's two really great denial units to my knowledge, one is the rogue psyker coven that can throw 3 dice to deny and the other is the MoP that can deny 2 times and force mortals on pashs


I would say they do things far closer to am orders. Especially because they dont cause multitudes of mortal wounds. Again, markerlights are not psychic powers. They dont teleport blobs of dudes. They dont cause mw. They dont allow you to do aoes or add auras or cause leadership penalties. Markerlights are not psychic powers. Assuming ml are like psychic powers is either a sign of a lack of understanding of most armies actual power lists or a lack of understanding of markerlights.


So the don't give additional BS? Oh wait they do which is literally one of the better powers....


Ah right. Tyranid primes give a +1 to hit for warriors. I guess the unit tyranid prime is a psychic power.

We all know whats important about psychic powers is if they mimic the effect of any other ability in the game.


Oh noes, a strawman.
Congratz.

It isn't like one is an aura, the other an targeted effect gated behind a check....




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also 5 markerlights is very rarely worth it, so most of the time it might not even exist.


Except for about 80% of other armies that would very well be worth an effect pursuing, wouldn't it be?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/06 22:59:17


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot




USA

Not Online!!! wrote:
Spoiler:
 Lance845 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Is it not? Psykers are not unique to any faction that gets them. Astra militarum orders are unique to am just like markerlights are unique to tau. Mob rules and waaghs for orks. Synapse and shadow in the warp for nids reanimation protocols for necrons and subterrainian assault for gsc.

You can't point at markerlights and say "see! The tau have psykers!"


They have quite a few rules that do the same job as psykers, and markerlights are one of them. Literally the only thing they are missing out on is a deny - which is not worth that much anyways.


There's two really great denial units to my knowledge, one is the rogue psyker coven that can throw 3 dice to deny and the other is the MoP that can deny 2 times and force mortals on pashs


I would say they do things far closer to am orders. Especially because they dont cause multitudes of mortal wounds. Again, markerlights are not psychic powers. They dont teleport blobs of dudes. They dont cause mw. They dont allow you to do aoes or add auras or cause leadership penalties. Markerlights are not psychic powers. Assuming ml are like psychic powers is either a sign of a lack of understanding of most armies actual power lists or a lack of understanding of markerlights.


So the don't give additional BS? Oh wait they do which is literally one of the better powers....


Ah right. Tyranid primes give a +1 to hit for warriors. I guess the unit tyranid prime is a psychic power.

We all know whats important about psychic powers is if they mimic the effect of any other ability in the game.


Oh noes, a strawman.
Congratz.

It isn't like one is an aura, the other an targeted effect gated behind a check....




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also 5 markerlights is very rarely worth it, so most of the time it might not even exist.


Except for about 80% of other armies that would very well be worth an effect pursuing, wouldn't it be?



Not with the checks required to get it. The cost is too high.

"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Nope again, the oppurtunity cost is too high.
Not the cost itself.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot




USA

Not Online!!! wrote:
Nope again, the oppurtunity cost is too high.
Not the cost itself.


No? It's just not worth the cost to get 5 markerlights on a single target, when you can get 1 markerlight on multiple targets.

Either way, this is pointless. Markerlights are and never will be like psychic powers, Tau need something in the psychic phase. Not having anything in a phase is bad game design, and currently the Tau lack anything in practically 2 phases of what amounts to a 4 phase game. (Move, Psychic, Shoot and Assault). And movement and shooting are the most uninteresting things in 8ed ever.

"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Sir Heckington wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Nope again, the oppurtunity cost is too high.
Not the cost itself.


No? It's just not worth the cost to get 5 markerlights on a single target, when you can get 1 markerlight on multiple targets.

Either way, this is pointless. Markerlights are and never will be like psychic powers, Tau need something in the psychic phase. Not having anything in a phase is bad game design, and currently the Tau lack anything in practically 2 phases of what amounts to a 4 phase game. (Move, Psychic, Shoot and Assault). And movement and shooting are the most uninteresting things in 8ed ever.


That i agree on.

Vice versa though Chaos Daemons suffer from the no shooting issue ironically.

And due to shooting beeing the damage phase most often it kinda shows how absurd gw balances with gameconcepts and skew armies on that range and their "supposed" faction identity, which determines where they are on that range.

Edit: supposed due to the fact that more then half the factions just can ally to overcome their inherent weaknesses.

Which makes as allready pointed out the existence of these mute.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/06 23:30:13


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot




USA

Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sir Heckington wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Nope again, the oppurtunity cost is too high.
Not the cost itself.


No? It's just not worth the cost to get 5 markerlights on a single target, when you can get 1 markerlight on multiple targets.

Either way, this is pointless. Markerlights are and never will be like psychic powers, Tau need something in the psychic phase. Not having anything in a phase is bad game design, and currently the Tau lack anything in practically 2 phases of what amounts to a 4 phase game. (Move, Psychic, Shoot and Assault). And movement and shooting are the most uninteresting things in 8ed ever.


That i agree on.

Vice versa though Chaos Daemons suffer from the no shooting issue ironically.

And due to shooting beeing the damage phase most often it kinda shows how absurd gw balances with gameconcepts and skew armies on that range and their "supposed" faction identity, which determines where they are on that range.

Edit: supposed due to the fact that more then half the factions just can ally to overcome their inherent weaknesses.

Which makes as allready pointed out the existence of these mute.


Unless you're one of the factions that has no allies.

Then just, feth you I suppose?

"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Sure, atleast gw finds this acceptable.

I personally Find it hilarious. In a bad way. Mostly because it throws all the inherent weakness /strength balancing out the window.
Because why even bother to do it then in the first place.


It also leads to the chronic allies abuse for specific tasks.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





 Lance845 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Is it not? Psykers are not unique to any faction that gets them. Astra militarum orders are unique to am just like markerlights are unique to tau. Mob rules and waaghs for orks. Synapse and shadow in the warp for nids reanimation protocols for necrons and subterrainian assault for gsc.

You can't point at markerlights and say "see! The tau have psykers!"


They have quite a few rules that do the same job as psykers, and markerlights are one of them. Literally the only thing they are missing out on is a deny - which is not worth that much anyways.


There's two really great denial units to my knowledge, one is the rogue psyker coven that can throw 3 dice to deny and the other is the MoP that can deny 2 times and force mortals on pashs


I would say they do things far closer to am orders. Especially because they dont cause multitudes of mortal wounds. Again, markerlights are not psychic powers. They dont teleport blobs of dudes. They dont cause mw. They dont allow you to do aoes or add auras or cause leadership penalties. Markerlights are not psychic powers. Assuming ml are like psychic powers is either a sign of a lack of understanding of most armies actual power lists or a lack of understanding of markerlights.

By that logic doom and shriveling pox aren't psychic powers either.
The vast majority of psychic powers don't teleport anything, don't cause AOEs or add auras. The most common effects are mortal wounds to a target, buffs to friendly units and debuffs to enemy units. Markerlights are buffs or debuffs, depending on how you look at them, very similar to doom or shriveling pox. Their army-wide rule is "For the Greater Good", not markerlights.
Tau also get to invoke the elements, master of war, manta strike or infiltrate across a large percentage of their army plus all the utility their various drones bring.

If anything, you could argue that Tau need more ways to deal MW (do they? I have no clue), but they are almost definitely not lacking the utility of psychic powers since they have lots of abilities that do the same things as psychic powers, including markerlights.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sir Heckington wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Nope again, the oppurtunity cost is too high.
Not the cost itself.


No? It's just not worth the cost to get 5 markerlights on a single target, when you can get 1 markerlight on multiple targets.

Either way, this is pointless. Markerlights are and never will be like psychic powers, Tau need something in the psychic phase. Not having anything in a phase is bad game design, and currently the Tau lack anything in practically 2 phases of what amounts to a 4 phase game. (Move, Psychic, Shoot and Assault). And movement and shooting are the most uninteresting things in 8ed ever.


So if you invoke the elements and declare master of war in the psychic phase, that would make it good game design?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/07 09:11:33


Drager wrote:
I'd heard there would be a clatter, then perhaps a hiss, but that's not what it's like. We'd all been told that these things lurked in vents and crevices, that they could sneak up on a man no matter how alert, but that just wasn't what happened. We saw them coming, well, we heard them first, an ear-splitting boom as they accelerated across the plain. They must have been 2 miles away when we heard the crack, but we barely had time to lift our weapons before they were on us and then... past us. Running faster than I could follow. They didn't attack, didn't even try and it was then, as the whole platoon stared after them that a dread crept through me and I turned to see that which they had been running from.

-Infantryman Collins, 5th Umbra Rifles
 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




United States

 Sir Heckington wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
Are Tau not strong enough already without giving them another mechanic? Cuz, last I checked, they ain't exactly in a bad place this edition.


Good, and fun to play, are two different things. Tau are good, but they are not fun nor interactive to play.



As a Tau player, I would gladly accept a powering down of the stronger units if it meant that we got access to the fight and psychic phase. Honestly, every army should have access to every phase. I was drawn into 40k by the idea of all the armies having strict gameplay identities, The shooting guys, the fighting guys, and so forth. However, after two years of playing now, I think 40k could probably do with some homogenization from a gameplay perspective. The fluff and art style makes the armies unique. The rules can still reflect uniqueness without needing to go as extreme as they are now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I made that last post without realizing there was an entire extra page. So to add, if Markerlights are supposed to be the Tau version of psyker powers like you guys suggest. That's fine, but put it in the psyker phase and don't make it cost that entire unit's shooting action to do it.

Another way to balance that would be to remove the markerlight stacking, and return to the targeted buff version of markerlights. Make them legit psyker powers, choose an effect, choose a unit, roll to see if it works.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/07 09:32:26


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

They just need something to do during the opponent's psychic phase. Having to wait through your opponent's turn without being allowed to do anything isn't good design.

Its the same problem with the movement phase, really, especially when hordes are involved. A sort of Overwatch / suppression fire mechanic that activates when an enemy unit moves within a certain distance and at a certain angle of a unit in overwatch "stance" might remove a bit of that tedium.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/07 12:56:03


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in it
Lurking Gaunt




Dublin

Tau riptides are very strong as a counter charge.

The Hive Mind hungers... 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
They just need something to do during the opponent's psychic phase. Having to wait through your opponent's turn without being allowed to do anything isn't good design.

Its the same problem with the movement phase, really, especially when hordes are involved. A sort of Overwatch / suppression fire mechanic that activates when an enemy unit moves within a certain distance and at a certain angle of a unit in overwatch "stance" might remove a bit of that tedium.


True Overwatch back in 40K? Highly unlikely.
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






 Jidmah wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Is it not? Psykers are not unique to any faction that gets them. Astra militarum orders are unique to am just like markerlights are unique to tau. Mob rules and waaghs for orks. Synapse and shadow in the warp for nids reanimation protocols for necrons and subterrainian assault for gsc.

You can't point at markerlights and say "see! The tau have psykers!"


They have quite a few rules that do the same job as psykers, and markerlights are one of them. Literally the only thing they are missing out on is a deny - which is not worth that much anyways.


There's two really great denial units to my knowledge, one is the rogue psyker coven that can throw 3 dice to deny and the other is the MoP that can deny 2 times and force mortals on pashs


I would say they do things far closer to am orders. Especially because they dont cause multitudes of mortal wounds. Again, markerlights are not psychic powers. They dont teleport blobs of dudes. They dont cause mw. They dont allow you to do aoes or add auras or cause leadership penalties. Markerlights are not psychic powers. Assuming ml are like psychic powers is either a sign of a lack of understanding of most armies actual power lists or a lack of understanding of markerlights.

By that logic doom and shriveling pox aren't psychic powers either.
The vast majority of psychic powers don't teleport anything, don't cause AOEs or add auras. The most common effects are mortal wounds to a target, buffs to friendly units and debuffs to enemy units. Markerlights are buffs or debuffs, depending on how you look at them, very similar to doom or shriveling pox. Their army-wide rule is "For the Greater Good", not markerlights.
Tau also get to invoke the elements, master of war, manta strike or infiltrate across a large percentage of their army plus all the utility their various drones bring.

If anything, you could argue that Tau need more ways to deal MW (do they? I have no clue), but they are almost definitely not lacking the utility of psychic powers since they have lots of abilities that do the same things as psychic powers, including markerlights.


No. By that logic it does not work that way.

What I was saying is that the effect of the ability does not make it a psychic power. Being a psychic power makes it a psychic power. Tau do not have psychic powers. Some tau units have their own unique special abilities. Marker lights is their army wide special ability. If you go to the first page of the index/rules for the codex when they explain the SEPT/HIVE FLEET/etc... keyword. On that page they explain army wide rules. For Nids it's synapse and sitw. For tau its markerlights. For AM it's orders.

The only argument I am making is that it is a bad analogy for someone to say "I cannot stop tau markerlights why should they be able to stop my psychic powers?" Answer, because ML are not psychic powers.



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in th
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




My Daemons don't have anything to do in the shooting phase aside from sneezing once. The shooting Phase is widely considered the most important phase on dakka. So should I advocate for shooty Nurgle and Slaanesh Daemons now? Nope. Not every army has to do everything. As noted Tau have different ways to do what psychic powers do for other people while CSM now even have Psychic powers AND psychic powers, but different (apostle). Daemons overcome their lack of shooting with deep strike, speed or Toughness, Tau have their own ways to overcome their lack of psychic powers. Maybe Tau players need to get used to just watch for a phase, just like all their opponents for the 30Mins that a usual Tau shooting Phase lasts as long as the Game overall doesn't have more alternations or reactions we'll have to live with that I guess.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
My Daemons don't have anything to do in the shooting phase aside from sneezing once. The shooting Phase is widely considered the most important phase on dakka. So should I advocate for shooty Nurgle and Slaanesh Daemons now? Nope. Not every army has to do everything. As noted Tau have different ways to do what psychic powers do for other people while CSM now even have Psychic powers AND psychic powers, but different (apostle). Daemons overcome their lack of shooting with deep strike, speed or Toughness, Tau have their own ways to overcome their lack of psychic powers. Maybe Tau players need to get used to just watch for a phase, just like all their opponents for the 30Mins that a usual Tau shooting Phase lasts as long as the Game overall doesn't have more alternations or reactions we'll have to live with that I guess.


You still get saves during your opponent's shooting phase, don't you? That's doing something. I'm not talking about useless phases during your turn. That's not a problem, you can just skip it. It still kind of sucks, but its nothing too irritating in practice.
I'm talking about having to watch your opponent play through his phases with no interactivity. That's just boring design.

Ever played against an Ork or Tyranid player with something like 150 models that he has to move, and you have to just wait for something like 10 minutes before you get to do something? I'm talking about stuff like that. And it sucks.
Now imagine the same playing doing his movement phase, and then going onto his psychic phase when you have nothing to deny his powers. That's even more time passing before you can play the game. Bad design is bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Strg Alt wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
They just need something to do during the opponent's psychic phase. Having to wait through your opponent's turn without being allowed to do anything isn't good design.

Its the same problem with the movement phase, really, especially when hordes are involved. A sort of Overwatch / suppression fire mechanic that activates when an enemy unit moves within a certain distance and at a certain angle of a unit in overwatch "stance" might remove a bit of that tedium.


True Overwatch back in 40K? Highly unlikely.


Probably, but at least you get to do something instead of waiting for interactivity. Normally I would be against alternative activations as that's not the "40k way", but if GW is going to insist on designing the game in such a way where you have to wait a while before being allowed to play the game, then that's probably the way to go.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/07 14:55:41


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
 
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