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Alcibiades wrote:
The one piece of counterevidence to my theory that the codexes were balanced against each other is that the poor C'tan Shards will be one-shotted by a squad of scatter-laser bikes.

Well yeah. I don't think they'll ever represent their fluff fully. I liked the idea of the powers, but the randomness and the squishyness ruins it.

IF they followed the fluff, Nightbringer would have a -8 Leadership debuff and if he sneezed, the earth would crack open and swallow a WK before it turned into antimatter and spewed molten space elf ghost bits everywhere.

Well it's only a shard.

Derp'd wish there was a way to delete post.

here is correct math for a full unit of scatterbikes.

Scatter laser jetbikes have better targets then the slow t7 c'tan shard. 40shots (assuming max count) 26.4 hits needing 5+ to wound is 8.71 wounds 4+/4++ is 4.356 wounds on average. 270pts of most things can bring a c'tan shard down because of it's weak saves. The T'ctan can still live on average and same with burning one formation.



Herped on math.

Alcibiades wrote:
Well it's only a shard.

Which is why it's not a -10 Ld debuff and the whole planet doesn't go nova. ;]

I mean, it's the being that TAUGHT mortal races to fear death.

Hmm, I don't know how much of that fluff, cool as it was, is still valid.

Has anyone fielded a double reclamation legion within a decision for the extra hq choice? How did it go?

I havent ever tried, but if I was to ever want a gakload of tomb blades, that is the way I would go.

It's good if your running dual barge lords and a foot slogging lists. It's also exppppeeeeensive point wise. That's about all you are going to have.

2 of them are minimally 1200 points.

Alcibiades wrote:
Hmm, I don't know how much of that fluff, cool as it was, is still valid.

Well they never changed the backstory of the C'Tan's origins, only how they ended up.

Solo NBs are squishy, but Conclave NBs should do fine against scatter lasers.

Yeah they'll be pretty close to immune to Scatter Laser Fire, of note you really have to beef up the Conclave with God Shackles, Solar Staff, and the added Invulnerables to really get it to "take on" Wraith Knight levels.

The problem the Conclave will have facing is Wraithknights. 2 Wraithknights should kill the Conclave in one round of shooting.

Eggzavier wrote:
Solo NBs are squishy, but Conclave NBs should do fine against scatter lasers.

Not bad. At T8, a Scatterbike does 1/9 of a wound to a Cryptek, or 4/27 of a wound to the C'tan. Of course, without taking Prescience into account For the rerolls. They can tank a very high number of Jetbikes, but will ultimately have issues still. For one, with Battle Focus always being 6" in the Craftworld detachment, catching things with the Conclave can be difficult. Also, it'll get wrecked by any Wraithgaurd or Wraithknights fairly easily.

Using a Conclave against the new Eldar can be risky. If they use mostly Wraith constructs and Jetbikes (which are the power units), the Conclave won't accomplish much. But, against other units, it should work fairly well.

The problem the Conclave will have facing is Wraithknights. 2 Wraithknights should kill the Conclave in one round of shooting.

I'm not worried about them snapshotting D-weapons. Even non snap shots, they'll probably kill *A* cryptek per WK.
If they don't have ranged D, and they assault, Teks can still tank it till the NB hits with fleshbane AP2.

Not bad. At T8, a Scatterbike does 1/9 of a wound to a Cryptek, or 4/27 of a wound to the C'tan. Of course, without taking Prescience into account For the rerolls. They can tank a very high number of Jetbikes, but will ultimately have issues still. For one, with Battle Focus always being 6" in the Craftworld detachment, catching things with the Conclave can be difficult. Also, it'll get wrecked by any Wraithgaurd or Wraithknights fairly easily.

Bear in mind, a kitted out conclave involves a solar staff, WG will regret appearing that close and doing no damage. Same with WK ranged D.

Also everyone seems to forget the Nightbringers best weapon for the WK. He has a 1/54 chance of removing the WK outright, and because it would be entertaining, the dice gods will buff that up to about 50:50

Im confused as to why people are leaving a staff of light on their destroyer lords when placing it with deathmarks. The deathmarks will more than likely not kill the wraith knight and the wraith knight will assault and potentially stomp them to death as the d-lord will not have a warscythe so there's no threat for the WK to assault us. The staff is AP3 but only wounds on a 6. He no longer gets the "Wound on a 2+" from the death marks. The rule stats specifically that only the deathmarks in the unit get to wound on a 2+. Am I missing something here?

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Im confused as to why people are leaving a staff of light on their destroyer lords when placing it with deathmarks. The deathmarks will more than likely not kill the wraith knight and the wraith knight will assault and potentially stomp them to death as the d-lord will not have a warscythe so there's no threat for the WK to assault us. The staff is AP3 but only wounds on a 6. He no longer gets the "Wound on a 2+" from the death marks. The rule stats specifically that only the deathmarks in the unit get to wound on a 2+. Am I missing something here?

Well, because it keeps him cheap, and that's 3 AP3 shots that reroll ones to hit, and if in the Decurion, reroll all failed to wound rolls. It has a decent chance to kill the Wraithknight during the shooting phase.

harkequin wrote:

The problem the Conclave will have facing is Wraithknights. 2 Wraithknights should kill the Conclave in one round of shooting.

I'm not worried about them snapshotting D-weapons. Even non snap shots, they'll probably kill *A* cryptek per WK.
If they don't have ranged D, and they assault, Teks can still tank it till the NB hits with fleshbane AP2.

Not bad. At T8, a Scatterbike does 1/9 of a wound to a Cryptek, or 4/27 of a wound to the C'tan. Of course, without taking Prescience into account For the rerolls. They can tank a very high number of Jetbikes, but will ultimately have issues still. For one, with Battle Focus always being 6" in the Craftworld detachment, catching things with the Conclave can be difficult. Also, it'll get wrecked by any Wraithgaurd or Wraithknights fairly easily.

Bear in mind, a kitted out conclave involves a solar staff, WG will regret appearing that close and doing no damage. Same with WK ranged D.

Also everyone seems to forget the Nightbringers best weapon for the WK. He has a 1/54 chance of removing the WK outright, and because it would be entertaining, the dice gods will buff that up to about 50:50

I think you're really overestimating the Conclave here. It's not a shooting powerhouse, it needs to be in Assault to do much of anything. Staffs of Light might pick off a couple Wraithguard, but they're not going to do anything to a Wraithknight (wounding on 6s, 5++ if they're not Double D guns, FNP). Random C'Tan powers are about ok here, though.

Gaze is pretty difficult to count as "good" against them, as all Wraith constructs are LD 10. On average it does 0-1 wounds before possible 5++ and FNP. You need to roll well above average to do anything noticeable to a WK with Gaze, though it's more devestating against Wraithguard.

As an Assault unit, the Conclave is not well suited to fighting Wraith constructs. If you charge Scythe Wraithguard, they're doing d3 SD wounds against you, which will kill most if not all of the Conclave in Overwatch. The Wraithknight, on the other hand, might not kill you, but will go first with either S10 or SD. And while the Nightbringer's Fleshbane helps, it only has 4 attacks, 5 on the charge, and the Crypteks can do nothing against the WK.

krodarklorr wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Im confused as to why people are leaving a staff of light on their destroyer lords when placing it with deathmarks. The deathmarks will more than likely not kill the wraith knight and the wraith knight will assault and potentially stomp them to death as the d-lord will not have a warscythe so there's no threat for the WK to assault us. The staff is AP3 but only wounds on a 6. He no longer gets the "Wound on a 2+" from the death marks. The rule stats specifically that only the deathmarks in the unit get to wound on a 2+. Am I missing something here?

Well, because it keeps him cheap, and that's 3 AP3 shots that reroll ones to hit, and if in the Decurion, reroll all failed to wound rolls. It has a decent chance to kill the Wraithknight during the shooting phase.

A SoL is nowhere near an effective weapon against a WK, even with rerolls to wound.

As an Assault unit, the Conclave is not well suited to fighting Wraith constructs. If you charge Scythe Wraithguard, they're doing d3 SD wounds against you, which will kill most if not all of the Conclave in Overwatch. The Wraithknight, on the other hand, might not kill you, but will go first with either S10 or SD. And while the Nightbringer's Fleshbane helps, it only has 4 attacks, 5 on the charge, and the Crypteks can do nothing against the WK.

Well doing the maths here. assuming 5 WG
10 D hits-6.6 D wounds-3.3 get past 4++(phase shifter)
So likely, both Teks dead, and 2 wounds on NB, Assuming that the WG were not even scratched by 6 S5 Ap3 shots/GoD/C'tan blam.

I'll take those odds. Once Nb is in combat, he'll kill them in 3-4 rounds, potentially getting a wound back from GoD.

Granted, this is a 470 point squad dealing with, 210 points.

But I would hope that the 6 S5 AP3 shots + GoD + C'tan blam, did something in those 2 shooting phases before the charge.

The solar staff makes it viable, I don't have to worry about ranged retaliation, so i am likely to make it's points back. (depending on Powers)

If its a CC WK, i'm not DS ing near it. If it's a ranged one, i would be comfortable either damaging it or tying it up with the formation (pray for bad stomps).

The formation hits like a truck T1, generally when the enemy is cramped up due to deployment. It will get a T2 shooting phase it you dont screw up the DS (beside a CC WK)

Also the benefit is it has to be dealt with. People tend to commit to bringing it down, giving you some breathing room.

If i was hunting eldar in general, i would be happy with it. For just WK's Dmarks all the way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the point was that 2 WK's would kill the conclave in a round of shooting. They won't, not with staff. they have to get in close to bring it down, or take another turn of fire.

Requizen wrote:

A SoL is nowhere near an effective weapon against a WK, even with rerolls to wound.

And a Warscythe is any better? 20 points, for nothing in the shooting phase, so you want him to charge you? You'll possibly just outright die to stomps, and you'd have 3 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 5s, and he still has the same saves as he did against the Staff of Light. By all means, if that's your preference, go for it. I'll gladly sit over here and watch that go down.

Odds of SoL (Olord)
(5/6)x(1/6) =5/36 x3 = 15/36 At range, not about to get stomped. EDIT: + overwatch. (1/6)x(1/6) = 1/36 x3 =3/36. So, 18/36 = 1/2. Equal odds if you land and get charged. (and 20 pts cheaper)
Warscythe
(1/2)x(1/3) = 1/6 x3 = 1/2 In CC at I2, about to get stomped.

WS comes out slightly on top, but a lot riskier.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Im confused as to why people are leaving a staff of light on their destroyer lords when placing it with deathmarks. The deathmarks will more than likely not kill the wraith knight and the wraith knight will assault and potentially stomp them to death as the d-lord will not have a warscythe so there's no threat for the WK to assault us. The staff is AP3 but only wounds on a 6. He no longer gets the "Wound on a 2+" from the death marks. The rule stats specifically that only the deathmarks in the unit get to wound on a 2+. Am I missing something here?

Well, because it keeps him cheap, and that's 3 AP3 shots that reroll ones to hit, and if in the Decurion, reroll all failed to wound rolls. It has a decent chance to kill the Wraithknight during the shooting phase.

Aaaaaah, Idk why but him rerolling to wound, due to destroyer cult, didn't even register to me. That's not bad then. I can see why now.

what is the mathhammer on decurion destroyer lord+10 deathmarks vs a WK on the turn they land?

also since the deepstrike rules require the unit to be in deepstrike reserve and the veil of darkness makes you remove the unit from the table and then arrive using the deepstrike rules, can you arrive twice from deepstrike reserve with your group of deathmarks with your destroyer lord?

 krodarklorr wrote:

Requizen wrote:

A SoL is nowhere near an effective weapon against a WK, even with rerolls to wound.

And a Warscythe is any better? 20 points, for nothing in the shooting phase, so you want him to charge you? You'll possibly just outright die to stomps, and you'd have 3 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 5s, and he still has the same saves as he did against the Staff of Light. By all means, if that's your preference, go for it. I'll gladly sit over here and watch that go down.

For 10 points more, you can get Voidreaper which has Master Crafted and Fleshbane. That's not killing a Wraithknight by itself, but if you chipped off a few wounds via Deathmarks and HfH, it might be enough to finish it off.

Voidblade since it has Fleshbane would be good against a Shooty Wraithknight, however it'd just punch the gak out of a Bargelord and that's game over.

A Destroyer Lord w/ it would work though.

Voidblades are rending ;p Void reaper get's fleshbane.

what is the mathhammer on decurion destroyer lord+10 deathmarks vs a WK on the turn they land?

Mathhammer incoming. (assuming DD WK)
Assuming you land in rapid fire.(decent enough odds)

20 shots, ~7 misses - 3 re-rolls, so 15 hits.
2 rends, 2 failed wounds (re-roll so we ignore this).
13 wounds + 2 Ap2.
6 failed armor (before FNP) - 4 wounds done.

Aren't WraithKnights gargantuan? So wouldn't the Deathmark Sniper hits only cause a wound on 6's?

Warmaster Primus wrote:
Aren't WraithKnights gargantuan? So wouldn't the Deathmark Sniper hits only cause a wound on 6's?

Hunters from Hyperspace says "wounds on 2+ on the turn they arrive". Once they go to the next turn, though, they only wound on 6s

Ah, I was only thinking about the Sniper special rule. Thanks.

Speaking of Deathmarks, how does Hunters from Hyperspace work on vehicles? Or does it not work, and the strength is resolved at 4 and it's pretty much useless?

also since the deepstrike rules require the unit to be in deepstrike reserve and the veil of darkness makes you remove the unit from the table and then arrive using the deepstrike rules, can you arrive twice from deepstrike reserve with your group of deathmarks with your destroyer lord?

Doesn't look like they get Hunters from Hyperspace as the rule states "arrives from deep strike reserve", and Veil just says immediately arrive via deep strike rules; nothing about going to reserve then arrive.