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So if you give wolf scouts a wolf guard leader does he act exactly like a Scout? or does the unit lose infiltrate, scout, and Behind Enemy Lines?

Aftersong wrote:So if you give wolf scouts a wolf guard leader does he act exactly like a Scout? or does the unit lose infiltrate, scout, and Behind Enemy Lines?

I would say yes, he acts just like a Wolf Scout and no, they don't lose their USR's. Why? Because Wolf Guard are not Independent Characters. They are technically an upgrade to the unit and being an independent character is a pre-requisite for the Wolf Scouts losing their USR's. See BRB pg. 74.

1) They dont lose their rule, however nothing states the WG gains the rule

2) THey cannot therefore infiltrate or scout, as it requires the UNIT to have the ability - and the unit does not have it - only part of the unit does.

nosferatu1001 wrote:1) They dont lose their rule, however nothing states the WG gains the rule

2) THey cannot therefore infiltrate or scout, as it requires the UNIT to have the ability - and the unit does not have it - only part of the unit does.

I agree with this post.

And because i still remeber the reply from Gwar! regarding this situation o_o

For myself, I believe this to be {another} gray area in GW's rules.

GW has not written any rules that pertain to a model from a unit in one part of the codex being added to a unit from another part of the codex, with the exception of Independent Characters joining a unit.

A member of a Wolf Guard unit that is added to, in this case, a Wolf Scout unit, is neither an Independent Character nor a Squad Upgrade Character. It isn't defined as a character at all, I don't believe.

Personally, I feel that the intent was for the unit to maintain its special rules, but that is not explicit in the way they are written. (However, there are a lot of issues associated with adding WG to other units that are not explicitly addressed.)

I think i would play it that the unit has those USR. Adding another guy to the unit doesn't stop the unit from have the rules so they may still use them.

This is after all GW that said yes you can yoyo swooping hawks.

Tri wrote:I think i would play it that the unit has those USR. Adding another guy to the unit doesn't stop the unit from have the rules so they may still use them.

This is after all GW that said yes you can yoyo swooping hawks.

It does when the entire unit has to have the rule in order to use it.

The entire unit does not have the rule, therefore may not use it

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Tri wrote:I think i would play it that the unit has those USR. Adding another guy to the unit doesn't stop the unit from have the rules so they may still use them.

This is after all GW that said yes you can yoyo swooping hawks.

It does when the entire unit has to have the rule in order to use it.

The entire unit does not have the rule, therefore may not use it

Please note that 'Infiltrate' and 'move through cover' don't care about models, only units. "Behind enemy lines" also works since again it only cares about unit. Scout is worded differently so you would only be able to move a d.transport. Stealth although not conferred does give every one in the unit +1 to their cover save.

Yes, and the "unit" does not have Infiltrate - *part of* the unit does, meaning you cannot fulfil the requirement of the unit having the rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, and the "unit" does not have Infiltrate - *part of* the unit does, meaning you cannot fulfil the requirement of the unit having the rule.

even though on page 81 special rules are explained to belong to models in that unit ... so the moment a wolfguard joins he's a model in that unit.

both infiltrate and scout have an asterisk by them in the USR chapter of the main book meaning that the UNIT LOSES THEM if an independent character joins them that doesn't have it. the ability to appear in back is dependent on outflanking which requires them to have scout or infiltrate (which would be lost if joined by an independent character).

the wolfguard is not technically an independent character so by 100% RAW they don't lose it. By RAI, they should since if the boss with 100's of years more experience in all aspects of combat "forgets" how to sneak around when with them, why should his lackey somehow remember. i guess the answer depends on your local store's RAW/RAI ratio.

Tri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, and the "unit" does not have Infiltrate - *part of* the unit does, meaning you cannot fulfil the requirement of the unit having the rule.

even though on page 81 special rules are explained to belong to models in that unit ... so the moment a wolfguard joins he's a model in that unit.

But nothing states he gains the rules - the rules belong to the models in the unit, not anyone else added to the unit.

Wolf guard under their special rules do not have anything wolf scouts have, there for they may not infiltrate

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Tri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, and the "unit" does not have Infiltrate - *part of* the unit does, meaning you cannot fulfil the requirement of the unit having the rule.

even though on page 81 special rules are explained to belong to models in that unit ... so the moment a wolfguard joins he's a model in that unit.

But nothing states he gains the rules - the rules belong to the models in the unit, not anyone else added to the unit.

But, once he's added to the unit, then he is part of the unit.

If he is not part of the unit, then what, exactly, is he?

He is a GW black hole...one of many.

Just 4+, there is nothing stong for or against it.

Well it seems more in favor of the independent character scenario since he is not a squad upgrade.

OLSO wrote:Well it seems more in favor of the independent character scenario since he is not a squad upgrade.

And I can argue the opposite. The point is that there is no clear definition. Not at least until GW releases some sort of FAQ. I find it hard to believe that buying a leader/upgrade for a unit results in them losing all of their special abilities. But look at 4th Ed. Broodlord. . .

Behind Enemy Lines is NOT Outflanking. You guys have a case on the Wolf Scouts losing Infiltrate or Scouts with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader. However, Behind Enemy Lines is a special rule of the Wolf Scouts, not a USR. Plus, the codex says that Wolf Guard with TDA, jump packs, or bikes cannot join Wolf Scouts, which implies that they're being sneaky since nothing stops ICs with these items from joining a Wolf scout unit.

BEL is a consequence of being able to outflank, if you cannot outflank (because not all members of the unit have Scout or Infiltrate) you cannot BEL.

OLSO wrote:Well it seems more in favor of the independent character scenario since he is not a squad upgrade.

There are only 2 types of characters in the game. Independent (IC) and Upgrade (UC) and no others. The BRB explains their rules on page 47 and 48. The important part in this question is which one is this character, and its an easy question. Does it have the IC rule...no. Does he follow the UC rules...yes except one explained below.

The only part of the UC rules that do not apply to a wolf guard is the fact they *do* have their own entry in the codex, but all other rules the Wolf Guard does have. But we only have 2 types of characters to choose from, and IC must have the IC special rule and be able to leave units on its own. As the wolf guard cannot do this, then he is a UC and is treated as a member of the unit and does not follow the IC's exceptions to special rules caveat.

INAT FAQ 3.1, pg. 86 states that, "Q: In what respects do Wolf Guard who are assigned as Pack Leaders for other units count as being part of those units?
A: In all respects. That means for the duration of the game they (among other things):
-Benefit from special rules that apply to the unit.
-Must be killed in order for the unit to be considered destroyed.
-Surrender 1 Kill Point total only if they and the rest of the unit are destroyed.
-Include their points value with the unit when calculating Victory Points.
-Count as a scoring model if assigned to a scoring unit [clarification]."

So, it essentially becomes a scout.

This has been discussed previously in other SW threads. As padixon and topher point out, the wolf guard are upgrade characters not IC. The rules on IC are very clear and restrictive on who is an IC, in no way do wolf guard meet those requirements.

Most of the INAT faq is completely clear cut since the wolf guard are upgrade characters. The question of KP/ victory points is still a bit murky in some ways if an entire unit of wolfguard are all distributed out.

Sliggoth

I will be so glad when GW FAQs this nonsense.

Except they probably won't answer this question because they consider it to be sooooo straightforward.