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Ummm I'm kind of just whining here but I want your opinions my buddy dragonfire and another whom isn't a member were playing a three way game. Turn 5 I pull some horrible jet bike tricks and I turbo boost to the objectives and end up controlling a point I probably shouldn't of but one that should. Any way each one of the others had one point. I had last turn so after I did that we rolled to end game I didn't remember the rule then dragonfire says "I'm pretty sure the game ends 4+" a say whatever because I trust the guy. Anyway we ruled and got a One. I wasn't sure about the rule so I checked it and low and behold the game ends on a one so I immediately tell them. They say “Well lets reroll it" to which I respond that we already rolled and there was no need but they said we should reroll it. It ended up a six and they say game continued to the next turn which would have slaughtered.
I'm asking you guys from a purely rules perspective what you think should have happened.

Umm, well...

If the die roll was a 1 and the game ends on a 1 and they have no way to reroll it (other than wanting to) then the game ends.

In the end (haha, that's a pun), if this was a friendly game, it should be about having fun. If this was a tournament, I would probably call the TO over.

Should've happened? Should've known the rules. But when you screw up-as everybody does-you're going to have to come to some sort of consensus on how to get back on track.

In other words, the rules don't really go into what to do when you break the rules. Either taking the roll you'd already made or re-rolling are acceptable. It's just something you've got to work out with your opponents.

If you agreed with him that the game ended on a 4+ you need to live with that. The time to look things like that up is before the roll, not after. The reroll was probably a decent sportsmanlike compromise and I don't think you can complain.

Knowing the rules well enough to prevent issues like this is on you btw, especially if you're going to decline to look things up. If you're going to trust someone else's memory of the rules then you should be prepared to live with the results even when they're wrong. Better yet, just look everything up (within reason) until you know your BGB inside and out.

I always thought that this was the stupidest rule in the book. Well, other than at tournaments for timing purposes. I mean the whole thing. Why should you stop playing at turn 5? What, did your troops get bored?

At my FLGS we barely bother to keep track of turns. Sometimes we end a game early because someone has clearly won already. Sometimes we go longer because it looks like we could have another interesting assault or shooting phase. I prefer mentalities that keep games fun and interesting, so I'd say my personal bias was that if the other players thought they could extract more enjoyment from continuing the game then rerolling the dice was the right move.

You essentially invoked TMIR on page 3 - you changed the rules, by mutual consent, such that the game ended on a 4+ instead of continuing on a 3+/4+.

So you were wrong - the game did not end, as you had agreed it would not.

Now, when you looked the rule up and found your mistake, that doesnt matter - you had agreed to change the rules, you can't decide you dont like the result and go back.

So, your *opponents* did the sportsmanlike thing and suggested a reroll - which you lost.

Commander Endova wrote:I always thought that this was the stupidest rule in the book. Well, other than at tournaments for timing purposes. I mean the whole thing. Why should you stop playing at turn 5? What, did your troops get bored?

Do you ever use the objective based missions? If you know concretely that the game is going to end on turn X, especially if you have the last turn of the game, you know you can safely ignore the enemy and just rush the objectives knowing that your opponent can do nothing to respond. Or with killpoints, you could make some very tactically unwise moves, but you squeezed another KP or two out of it, so who cares if it means you're whole army is wide open to attack next turn? There isn't going to be a next turn.

You can still do that with random turn lengths, but you're taking a big chance that the game isn't going to end and you've left yourself in a vulnerable position.

Commander Endova wrote:I always thought that this was the stupidest rule in the book. Well, other than at tournaments for timing purposes. I mean the whole thing. Why should you stop playing at turn 5? What, did your troops get bored? .

As Bookwrack pointed out, from a rule mechanics standpoint, it's to remove the 'last turn rush' to grab objectives or run troops out into the open because they know they are safe.


From a fluff perspective, how many fantasy or scifi books have you read where the battle ends because something important comes up halfway through and one side has to pull out and go elsewhere?

Finishing the game on a set number of turns is no less arbitrary than finishing it on a random turn.

thats the price you pay in a objective based game, i personally reworked the old missions to fit into the new rules, the new missions are just kind of dumb, nothing beats the old ones, night fight or cleanse, plus troops only scoring is kind of odd but thats a whole different subject.. to get back on track, play by the rules the game ends no reroll required, playing friendly you would be in the wrong.

Well, troops are the backbone of an army.
They wanted to put more emphasis on taking troop choices...

'Troops score' is prob. the most easiest solution...keeping everything else contesting was their compromise I guess.

I do miss: Take and Hold... but I'm a Death Guard player, so I'm biased for that mission.

They should not have rerolled the dice.

G

"I'm pretty sure my Guardsmen have a 3+ cover save..."

Rolls 3 dice.

"Wait, no, they've got a regular 4+..."

Should that person re-roll his saves? Of course not. He rolled them for a specific purpose (cover save) and just because he was mistakenly attempting to make 3+ saves instead of 4+ doesn't change the fact that the dice were cast for a specific purpose.

In your example, as far as I can tell, there was no 'agreement' before the game since it was just your friend mis-remembering the rule. If you rolled a 1, then the game ends because that's what the rules state. Just because you were rolling a die with a different expectation doesn't change the reason the die was rolled.

At least that's how I would play it.

DoW

The dice was already rolled it was only a matter of knowing what the result meant. >.>
If we'd get re-rolls every time we had to check up a rule, we'd be re-rolling everything all the time. >.>

DogOfWar wrote:"I'm pretty sure my Guardsmen have a 3+ cover save..."

Rolls 3 dice.

"Wait, no, they've got a regular 4+..."

Should that person re-roll his saves? Of course not. He rolled them for a specific purpose (cover save) and just because he was mistakenly attempting to make 3+ saves instead of 4+ doesn't change the fact that the dice were cast for a specific purpose.

In your example, as far as I can tell, there was no 'agreement' before the game since it was just your friend mis-remembering the rule. If you rolled a 1, then the game ends because that's what the rules state. Just because you were rolling a die with a different expectation doesn't change the reason the die was rolled.

At least that's how I would play it.

DoW

Except here they agreed that the game would end on a specific roll, and then made that roll - thus invoking TMIR which lets you *change the rules as long as both agree* - you cannot agree to change the rules, make the roll and then try to apply the initial rule just because you didnt like the result.

Your opponents were being sportsmanlike in allowing a reroll - they did not have to do that as that was not the agreement.

There was no agreement to change any rules.
They mis-remembered a rule, and upon checking the bgb found that the result was something they didnt want - so they convinced the OP to let them re-roll.

Besides all that - there is no point re-rolling it anyway - knowing what the result of a dice roll means does not change the result of said dice roll. Unless of course you are cheating.

Regardless of what was rolled by mistake. Our house rule is always re-roll. Dice fallen off board, rule not clarified whatever the reason may be and whatever the result may be its always a re-roll. Makes it fair and sometimes interesting.

No re-roll required.

Use common sense, the dice rolled was for a purpose, that roll should still apply.

Example A) predator fires 2 lascannon sponsons, missing both times, the player then remembers than one of the sponsons was destroyed, should that player then fire again and re-roll one of the dice? no, the dice were rolled, and he missed twice...

Example B) The player rolls for his 3 deep-striking units and declares he needs a 4+, rolling a 1, 2 and a 2. You point out that it is in fact a 3+, the other player would not get a re-roll, those dice were rolled to see if reserves showed up, weather he needed a 4+ or a 3+ he failed the roll.

So rolling to see if the game ends and rolling a 1 when you need a 4+ but then discovering that in-fact it was a 3+ roll does not matter, you still failed to roll no matter what the dice roll needed to be.

Now if you rolled a 3 in the first place... thats where it gets interesting and i would use the same point as above, you rolled a 3, you needed a 3+ not a 4+, it has as much a right to stand as the roll as the 1 did.

dayve110 wrote:No re-roll required.

Use common sense, the dice rolled was for a purpose, that roll should still apply.

Example A) predator fires 2 lascannon sponsons, missing both times, the player then remembers than one of the sponsons was destroyed, should that player then fire again and re-roll one of the dice? no, the dice were rolled, and he missed twice...

I disagree with this one. Let's assume your scenario but a different outcome.

Example A) predator fires 2 lascannon sponsons, missing once and hitting once. The player then remembers than one of the sponsons was destroyed, should that player then fire again and re-roll one of the dice? Yes, because there's no way to know which one should be the hit and which one is the miss unless the player generally rolls different colored dice for different sponsons. So in this case, re-roll matters since the first roll is unclear and the wrong number of dice were rolled. I always reroll when I roll the wrong number of dice.

dayve110 wrote:
Example B) The player rolls for his 3 deep-striking units and declares he needs a 4+, rolling a 1, 2 and a 2. You point out that it is in fact a 3+, the other player would not get a re-roll, those dice were rolled to see if reserves showed up, weather he needed a 4+ or a 3+ he failed the roll.

Agreed. Right number of dice were rolled and no procedural errors committed.

dayve110 wrote:
Now if you rolled a 3 in the first place... thats where it gets interesting and i would use the same point as above, you rolled a 3, you needed a 3+ not a 4+, it has as much a right to stand as the roll as the 1 did.

Yep, I would let it stand. Procedure was correct, they just quoted the wrong number.

pretre wrote:

dayve110 wrote: I always reroll when I roll the wrong number of dice.

If the error is in my opponent's favor, I let it stand. My mistake, I'll take the hit.
If it's in my favor, I reroll. My mistake, I shouldn't benefit from it.

yea, thats called cheating, they either dont know the rules well enough to play, or purposely lied so that they could win the game ...

don_mondo wrote:If the error is in my opponent's favor, I let it stand. My mistake, I'll take the hit.
If it's in my favor, I reroll. My mistake, I shouldn't benefit from it.

I do it exactly the same subconsciously. If the die is at all in question and it's in my favor, I reroll. I'm not as zealous in rerolling questionable dice against me.

My buddy actually called me on dice rolling this weekend when we were playing. I consistently reroll anything that lands on terrain, but sometimes skip it if the roll is against me. He fires at me and I failed a save. The die rolled a 1 and landed on an uneven forest template.

I just counted it as a missed save. He made me reroll them because I was being inconsistent.

Of course, I made the reroll.

Moral of the Story: Be consistent no matter what you do.