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This problem is currently happening right in front of me:

I have some flying warriors, they deep strike onto a platform that was agreed upon to be normal terrain. The platform is 9" high. For gameplay function we stated there are teleporters at the bottom and top of each support on the platform.

Question:

If we are moving flying/jumppack/whatever units off or onto the platform, how do we measure distance? purely horizontally, diagonally?

Currently we've agreed to measure diagonally since it would provide an extreme advantage to be able to move 12" off the platform purely horizontally. Is there a correct way to be playing this out, or is this more grey rules area?

-Fool Whip

Please see Page 83 for a nice picture of how it works. Doing my best without pictures jump-infantry measure from the base to the base moving up to 12" (diagonally)... If you walk you (so no dangerous terrain test) you must move up straight then move across.


If you are using your teleporters then i would recommend that they can only move as infantry when using them. That way they don't warp 9" and get a 12" move.

Excellent, thanks Tri.

You measure frmo the base of the model to where the base is ending up - NOTHING states you only do so on a 2D plane, and as Tri states page 83 even shows how you move in ruins - you measure the diagonal. So in this case you would measure the diagonal, which if they are starting more than 6" away might not leave you enough movement

Note that if you are moving entirely over a ruin, from table surface to table surface, you essentially get "free" movement to get over the ruin, as you dont have to measure that part of the move where you go up and over. It's part of the abstraction of the game where you only consider the start and end points.

nosferatu1001 is correct. Give that man an e-cookie.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Note that if you are moving entirely over a ruin, from table surface to table surface, you essentially get "free" movement to get over the ruin, as you dont have to measure that part of the move where you go up and over. It's part of the abstraction of the game where you only consider the start and end points.

I've seen this idea suggested a couple of times, and have no idea where it's come from.

Whilst the rules don't go into the mechanics of measuring movement beyond pointing out that you can't measure from the front of the model's base to the rear of the base after movement, there is nothing that I've seen that suggests that you shouldn't measure the model's actual movement.

Models are given a set distance that they can move. If a model moves along a winding path for 12", it has moved 12", regardless of resultant distance in a straight line from its start point.


Having said that, most players from my experience do measure horizontally for jump Infantry and Skimmers, ignoring the height of obstacles that they are moving over.

insaniak wrote:

Having said that, most players from my experience do measure horizontally for jump Infantry and Skimmers, ignoring the height of obstacles that they are moving over.

Aye, this is how I've always played it as well. The situation I just had would have given me much to large of an advantage. We were agreed upon to go by the diagonal, and then Tri's reference reaffirmed out position on the deal. I guess the game just needs more clarity for 3d movement purposes.

insaniak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Note that if you are moving entirely over a ruin, from table surface to table surface, you essentially get "free" movement to get over the ruin, as you dont have to measure that part of the move where you go up and over. It's part of the abstraction of the game where you only consider the start and end points.

I've seen this idea suggested a couple of times, and have no idea where it's come from.

Whilst the rules don't go into the mechanics of measuring movement beyond pointing out that you can't measure from the front of the model's base to the rear of the base after movement, there is nothing that I've seen that suggests that you shouldn't measure the model's actual movement.

Models are given a set distance that they can move. If a model moves along a winding path for 12", it has moved 12", regardless of resultant distance in a straight line from its start point.


Having said that, most players from my experience do measure horizontally for jump Infantry and Skimmers, ignoring the height of obstacles that they are moving over.

They're said to be placed within 12" of their starting point and move freely over all terrain and models. I think 'most players' are correct in their.. assumption.

Ridcully wrote:They're said to be placed within 12" of their starting point

No they're not. The rules for Jump Infantry say that they can move 12". Not that they can be placed within 12" of their starting point.


If you're playing that vertical height is ignored, it doesn't really make any practical difference though, since there is then no reason not to always move them in a straight line.

... and move freely over all terrain and models.

Right... they can move freely over it (as opposed to normal Infantry, who have to go through or around). But 'move freely over' doesn't mean that you can ignore the distance they are moving... just that they can move over it without impediment.

I disagree with you insaniak. I am aware of the infamous picture in the bgb showing a diagonal plane of travel. When moving over a very tall building but not landing on it do you now have to measure your arc over the building? The way I have always played it jump infantry are assumed to be soaring high above the battlefield when they jump and don't need to take into account vertical distance travelled. I know that their is no real evidence to back up this assumption in the bgb but there is also nothing saying that jump infantry need to measure distance along a vertical plane.

augustus5 wrote: When moving over a very tall building but not landing on it do you now have to measure your arc over the building?

The rules don't tell you to measure anything other than the distance the model is actually moving, or to ignore movement on the vertical plane, so yes, technically you should be measuring the arc of movement over the building.

Most players don't, though. Myself included.

I agree with Insaniak, and we do play that way. Which is to say we measure the distance, not a 2d abstraction of it.

insaniak wrote:

Ridcully wrote:They're said to be placed within 12" of their starting point

No they're not. The rules for Jump Infantry say that they can move 12". Not that they can be placed within 12" of their starting point.

I was referring to the jump infantry rules in the ruins section, which is word for word what i said.

In the jetbike example the bike moves straight through the floor of the ruin in order to make 9" movement. He doesn't move in a slightly more upwardly angled manner in order to reach level with the floor, then move horizontally onto it (to move over terrain rather than through it).

Ridcully wrote:I was referring to the jump infantry rules in the ruins section, which is word for word what i said.

In the Ruins section, the rule you're referring to is for models moving into or out of the ruin, not moving over it. So yes, they're placed anywhere within 12", because they just move in a straight line.

In the jetbike example the bike moves straight through the floor of the ruin in order to make 9" movement. He doesn't move in a slightly more upwardly angled manner in order to reach level with the floor, then move horizontally onto it (to move over terrain rather than through it).

Again, this is a different scenario to that being discussed. The jetbike is moving in a straight line to a position inside the ruin, not moving over the ruin.

Note though that the distance measured in the example pic is in a straight line on an angle to reflect the actual distance moved, rather than just measuring horizontally...

insaniak wrote:

Ridcully wrote:I was referring to the jump infantry rules in the ruins section, which is word for word what i said.

In the Ruins section, the rule you're referring to is for models moving into or out of the ruin, not moving over it. So yes, they're placed anywhere within 12", because they just move in a straight line.

What's the difference between moving into and moving over? Are you saying that a ruin, that has a base exceeding the walls by 1" on all sides, can be moved straight through if you end your move slightly on top of the base? But to end your move not on the base (simply never ending or starting your move in the ruin) is impossible because you have to measure an arc over the ruin? This is an honest question, as i'm not 100% what you're saying is the problem here.

In the jetbike example the bike moves straight through the floor of the ruin in order to make 9" movement. He doesn't move in a slightly more upwardly angled manner in order to reach level with the floor, then move horizontally onto it (to move over terrain rather than through it).

Again, this is a different scenario to that being discussed. The jetbike is moving in a straight line to a position inside the ruin, not moving over the ruin.

Note though that the distance measured in the example pic is in a straight line on an angle to reflect the actual distance moved, rather than just measuring horizontally...

Why can he move physically through the floor of a ruin in order to reach his destination but not through the ruin in general? The ruin is terrain and jump infantry move over terrain. Just as the infantry picture shows how infantry move, the jetbike's picture shows that jet bikes move in a straight line.

Ridcully wrote:What's the difference between moving into and moving over?

Moving into the ruin means that you're physically moving through it.
Moving over the ruin means you don't actually enter it... you just pass over the top.

Are you saying that a ruin, that has a base exceeding the walls by 1" on all sides, can be moved straight through if you end your move slightly on top of the base? But to end your move not on the base (simply never ending or starting your move in the ruin) is impossible because you have to measure an arc over the ruin?

No. I'm saying that if you move through the ruin, you follow the rules for moving through difficult terrain.
If you move over the ruin, you don't, because you're not moving through the terrain.

Why can he move physically through the floor of a ruin in order to reach his destination but not through the ruin in general?

I never said he couldn't. He can choose to move over the terrain instead of through it.

Just as the infantry picture shows how infantry move, the jetbike's picture shows that jet bikes move in a straight line.

No it doesn't. It shows that this particular jetbike moved in a straight line. There is no requirement for units to move in a straight line... just a maximum distance they are allowed to move.

insaniak wrote:

Ridcully wrote:What's the difference between moving into and moving over?

Moving into the ruin means that you're physically moving through it.
Moving over the ruin means you don't actually enter it... you just pass over the top.

Are you saying that a ruin, that has a base exceeding the walls by 1" on all sides, can be moved straight through if you end your move slightly on top of the base? But to end your move not on the base (simply never ending or starting your move in the ruin) is impossible because you have to measure an arc over the ruin?

No. I'm saying that if you move through the ruin, you follow the rules for moving through difficult terrain.
If you move over the ruin, you don't, because you're not moving through the terrain.

Why can he move physically through the floor of a ruin in order to reach his destination but not through the ruin in general?

I never said he couldn't. He can choose to move over the terrain instead of through it.

Just as the infantry picture shows how infantry move, the jetbike's picture shows that jet bikes move in a straight line.

No it doesn't. It shows that this particular jetbike moved in a straight line. There is no requirement for units to move in a straight line... just a maximum distance they are allowed to move.

How can he move through it at all? They never seem to suggest that difficult terrain is treated any differently from a normal move (just that if you finish or begin your move on top of it then you take the relevant test). To get there you do a normal jump infantry move which you say is measured above terrain. I don't see why they can ignore floors if they move over terrain.

The rule says they can move over any terrain, and the example to the right of it clearly shows a jetbike moving through it.

Basically, flying units can either move over the terrain or through it. To move over, you actually have to measure up. If you decide to fly straight through a ruin (which is perfectly legal unless it is impassible), you will need to make a dangerous terrain test.

Ridcully wrote:How can he move through it at all?

Why would you assume that he can't?

They never seem to suggest that difficult terrain is treated any differently from a normal move (just that if you finish or begin your move on top of it then you take the relevant test).

That's correct.

To get there you do a normal jump infantry move which you say is measured above terrain.

Not quite. You only measure over the terrain if the model is moving over the terrain. You measure the model's actual path of movement. So if the model is moving over the terrain, you measure the distance over the terrain. If the model is moving into the terrain, you just measure the distance to their final position.

Regardless of where the model is moving, or their method of movement, you measure the model's actual movement.

I don't see why they can ignore floors if they move over terrain.

Sorry, not sure what you mean by that.

The rule says they can move over any terrain, and the example to the right of it clearly shows a jetbike moving through it.

Yes... they can move over terrain. They don't have to. They can move through it just like any other unit.

insaniak wrote:

Ridcully wrote:How can he move through it at all?

Why would you assume that he can't?

They never seem to suggest that difficult terrain is treated any differently from a normal move (just that if you finish or begin your move on top of it then you take the relevant test).

That's correct.

To get there you do a normal jump infantry move which you say is measured above terrain.

Not quite. You only measure over the terrain if the model is moving over the terrain. You measure the model's actual path of movement. So if the model is moving over the terrain, you measure the distance over the terrain. If the model is moving into the terrain, you just measure the distance to their final position.

Regardless of where the model is moving, or their method of movement, you measure the model's actual movement.

I don't see why they can ignore floors if they move over terrain.

Sorry, not sure what you mean by that.

The rule says they can move over any terrain, and the example to the right of it clearly shows a jetbike moving through it.

Yes... they can move over terrain. They don't have to. They can move through it just like any other unit.

Where does it SAY they move through it just like any other unit? I get that you're saying they're allowed to move through difficult terrain, rather than over it. I'm saying, what rule says they move through terrain like any other unit, rather than 'over' it as mentioned repeatedly. The only allowance seems to be that their move (over terrain) can end on top of terrain. This doesn't tell me they can move through floors, walls, and other terrain elements.

Ridcully wrote:Where does it SAY they move through it just like any other unit?

Where does it say they don't?

The general Movement rules outline how movement works. The Unit Types rules outline specific areas where the rules are altered for the non-infantry unit types.

Nowhere in these rules does it state that Jump Infantry or Jetbikes lose the general ability to move through area terrain. They are simply given an additional rule that allows them to move over it if they so choose.

This doesn't tell me they can move through floors, walls, and other terrain elements.

Whether or not any unit can move through walls in a ruin depends on whether or not you and your opponent agree to play that way. The rules for ruins specifically tell you to sort it out for yourself. This is in contrast to the regular area terrain rules, in which the actual features of the terrain can be ignored (or rather removed as required) for movement purposes.

I agree with Insaniak at least with terrain. I always measure a straight line from where the model starts to where it lands (in 3 dimensional coordinates).

You can still draw a line ignoring the height of most terrain features while still following the RAW in most cases as long as you say the jump models are moving "through" the terrain and not over it. Models can always move through terrain and as long as they don't start in it or land in it then they don't have to take a dangerous terrain test. In this way you can move jump marines from one side of a ten inch wide ruin all the way to the other side while ignoring vertical height and movement altogether.

But in the case of something totally impassable like an enemy tank or a bunker I think the RAW would dictatate that you have to measure an arc over it.