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Had this come up today. We seemed to remember something about characteristic tests being based on unmodified characteristics but failed to find the text. Anyways, the scenario;

Ghaz is struck by a Thunder Hammer, consequently kills the squad on the Ork player's turn.
Next turn, SW guy casts Jaws of the World Wolf on him.

Question: What initiative is Ghaz at?

I don't have the SM codex, what does the exact wording of the thunderhammer say? If it says along the lines of 'strikes at I1 until end of next assault phase, then use the standard I for the jaws test. If not, then I'm unsure.

Thunder Hammers are actually on pg. 42 of the main rule book. It states;

"In addition, all models that suffer an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer and are not killed will be knocked reeling, reducing their Initiative to a value of 1 until the end of the next player's turn."

Emphasis mine. So, if your Thunder Hammer strikes...lets say Abaddon on your opponents turn, then Abaddon would be Ini 1 on your next shooting phase. So...it would appear he would need to roll a 1 to avoid death from JoWW. Unless I'm missing something specific about characteristic tests?

His initiatives is 1 till the end of the next player turn. So thats what he would test at but ...

Just checking the order here ...

1)Ghaz was struck by a thunder hammer in the space wolves turn
2)Ghaz's unit killeds the space wolves unit in the ork turn
3)ork turn ends Ghaz's is no longer I1.

If thats the case then ghaz was back to his normal initiative

Tri wrote:His initiatives is 1 till the end of the next player turn. So thats what he would test at but ...

Just checking the order here ...

1)Ghaz was struck by a thunder hammer in the space wolves turn
2)Ghaz's unit killeds the space wolves unit in the ork turn
3)ork turn ends Ghaz's is no longer I1.

If thats the case then ghaz was back to his normal initiative

No, Ghaz was struck with the TH on the Ork player's assault/turn. Then had JoWW cast on him during the SW players next turn (so the initiative deficit was still in place). If this is indeed the case (his initiative being 1 for the next turn), I could see this coming up quite often against certain Monstrous Creatures.

Unit gets assaulted by Daemon Prince/Tyrant/Swarm Lord/Big Bad HQ.
Unit has hidden TH, does a wound.
JoWW next turn = dead Daemon Prince/Big bad HQ.

Then he's at I1 and it sucks to be him.

Cheesy as Chucky Cheese.

G

Could you elaborate on that GBF?
It seems like a simple application of the rules.

The combo works best with Arjac Rockfist who throws his thunder hammer up to 6" in the shooting phase, after which you eat model alive with JotWW

But yes either hit a model during opponents assault phase or in your shooting phase with Rockfist so you get the insanely high chance to destroy a model

Well, if that is the case it certainly strikes me as fairly strong and not something to use against friends.

Couple this with the Adepticon FAQ on JoWW/Priest powers (No LOS needed, can pick out individual models, can aim at models in HTH)....I could see TH/JoWW combos being a pretty strong 'fark off' to big baddies.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Couple this with the Adepticon FAQ on JoWW/Priest powers (No LOS needed, can pick out individual models, can aim at models in HTH)....I could see TH/JoWW combos being a pretty strong 'fark off' to big baddies.

Since the only requirement is that you draw a 24" line to any direction that's completely accurate. Kinda cheesy, considering you can even use it to remove units from CC

Rewision wrote:The combo works best with Arjac Rockfist who throws his thunder hammer up to 6" in the shooting phase, after which you eat model alive with JotWW

Per INAT FAQ 3.1 this does not work.

you may not remove models from combat since this is not a template weapon and its counted as a shooting attack, there fore you may never aim it into a close combat, as for the rockfists throwing the hammer, i dont believe it retains its ability to reduce your initiative to one

OLSO wrote:you may not remove models from combat since this is not a template weapon and its counted as a shooting attack, there fore you may never aim it into a close combat, as for the rockfists throwing the hammer, i dont believe it retains its ability to reduce your initiative to one

According to the INAT FAQ (Which I will be forced to follow, as I'm going to Adepticon), you can shoot JoWW into close combat.

how so, it is listed as counting as a shooting attack, and you cant shoot into close combat, how does this one work?

OLSO wrote:how so, it is listed as counting as a shooting attack, and you cant shoot into close combat, how does this one work?

+SW.37H.01 – Q: Does Jaws of the World Wolf require a target and/or line of sight?
A: No [clarification].

+SW.37H.02 – Q: Can Jaws of the World Wolf affect friendly models and/or models locked in close combat?
A: Yes and yes [clarification].

mind posting me a link to this or sending me a message with it

No problem, it's a great FAQ. I'm not so sure about the rulings on the JoWW/Rune Priests though, seems a little strong...but maybe playing will show it's not. Linkage;


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/269301.page

these faqs dont work a games workshop sanctioned events i dont think, and if they let this happen it turns the rune priest from being good to better, so they might want to switch these around.

AgeOfEgos wrote:No problem, it's a great FAQ. I'm not so sure about the rulings on the JoWW/Rune Priests though, seems a little strong...but maybe playing will show it's not. Linkage;


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/269301.page

When a faq changes fundamental rules to the game for whatever, and the faq can change based on which way the wind blows...

Don't make it a good faq.

That's a poor ruling.... Erhmmm clarification. And no arjac's hammer does not drop inititiave when thrown... That's been discussed before.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:That's a poor ruling.... Erhmmm clarification. And no arjac's hammer does not drop inititiave when thrown... That's been discussed before.

G

My mistake then.

OLSO wrote:how so, it is listed as counting as a shooting attack, and you cant shoot into close combat, how does this one work?

True, but it doesn't say you have to target any specific unit, and as the rules go, you cannot target units in close combat. You can cast it into close combat as much as you want.

The reason the JotWW was ruled that way was to fall in line with the Vibro Cannon which is the closest similar weapon.

Well then wouldnt it be a nasty combo to have the new Tyranid Lashwhips as a combo with JotWW?

I was almost positive that characteristic tests are taken on unmodified characteristics but dont got my book.

I keep reading that here, but not in my books.

This is true for SA, iirc, but not for tests in general.

Just read the BGB, page 8, heading :Characteristic Tests.

No mention of using unmodified values.

SA mentions using the unmodified value, which, to me, is evidence that regular characteristics tests are affected by modifiers.

Just my two cents.

hmm yea i was almost positive of the unmodofied bit too, but its not there in my book either .... i guess gwar was wrong when he posted in one of my topics, about deffkoptas hit and run being at normal or +1 init from furious charge.

Furious charge lets them fight with +1I, not use the bonus for checks, as I read it.

"when attacking in close combat" as opposed to "during that assault phase"