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OK, I got my LM army on the way. The list I'm building is below. I have some extras coming in, those being a Carni, 2 extra Stegs, 3 Sallies, more skinks and Saurus warriors. So I can change it around, but the list is pretty set. Although I will most likely soften it to play at home and make it tougher if I go outside and play.

I like to have 2 armies for each game I play so the family can jump in and fight with the old man. Give me some ideas/suggestions on what 2nd Army I should try to round up as a good counter to this list. Armies that are off the table from the start are VC and Daemons. I was thinking an Empire army. I've done O&G, TK, HE, and WE in the past. The past being about 7 years ago.


Lizards:

Slaan Mage-Priest (1#, 435 Pts)
1 Slann Mage-Priest (Battle Standard Bearer) @ 435 Pts
General; Battle Standard Bearer
1 Cupped Hands of the Old Ones
1 Bane Head
1 War Banner
1 Focus of Mystery
1 The Focused Rumination

Saurus Scar-Veteran (1#, 143 Pts)
1 Saurus Scar-Veteran @ 143 Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield; Scaly Skin
1 Burning Blade of Chotec
1 Amulet of Itzl

Skink Priest (6#, 440 Pts)
1 Skink Priest @ 440 Pts
Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Aquatic
1 Ancient Stegadon
Engine of the Gods; Causes Terror; Immune to Psychology; Large Target; Scaly Skin; Stubborn
4 Skink Crew
Hand Weapon; Javelin; Aquatic; Skirmishers
1 Diadem of Power
1 Dispel Scroll

Skink Skirmishers (10#, 70 Pts)
10 Skink Skirmishers
Hand Weapon; Blowpipe; Aquatic; Skirmishers

Skink Skirmishers (10#, 70 Pts)
10 Skink Skirmishers
Hand Weapon; Blowpipe; Aquatic; Skirmishers

Saurus Warriors (18#, 246 Pts)
17 Saurus Warriors @ 246 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Spear; Shield; Scaly Skin
1 Saurus Champion
Hand Weapon; Spear; Shield

Temple Guard (20#, 341 Pts)
20 Temple Guard @ 341 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour; Shield; Scaly Skin

Cold One Cavalry (6#, 300 Pts)
5 Cold One Cavalry @ 300 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Spear; Shield; Causes Fear; Scaly Skin
1 Cold One Rider Champion
Hand Weapon; Spear; Shield
1 Sun Standard of Chotec
6 Cold One
Causes Fear; Stupid

Terradon Riders (4#, 120 Pts)
4 Terradon Rider @ 120 Pts
Hand Weapon; Javelin; Flyer
4 Terradon
Flyer

Total Roster Cost: 2165


Speak to me O Great Forum!

It looks good to me.

Jormi_Boced wrote:It looks good to me.

But the question was; what is a good 2nd army to own so I can pit it against the Lizardmen listed above?

Well fluffy archenemies are Skaven and Dark Elves.

I do like the new Skaven stuff, but I'm not sure I want to get in on an Horde style army. Can the Dark Elves do something fairly compact and powerful?

Warriors of Chaos always seem like the best choice. Low count, high cost. I've really been looking at Tomb Kings, but it seems they haven't been updated and might not be a good choice at this time.

I guess I'll have to play around in AB and see what comes together.


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OK, I'm thinking of going with TK as my second army. I've always loved them and need to hear thoughts how this list would stand up against that LM list above or in general against other armies.

1 Khalida @ 420 pts

1 Liche Priest @ 330 pts (Hierophant)
1 Casket of Souls
1 Dispel Scroll
1 Dispel Scroll

1 Liche Priest @ 160 pts
1 Hieratic Jar
1 Cloak of the Dunes

1 Tomb Prince @ 199 pts (Hand Weapon; Flail; Light Armour; Chariot)
1 Collar of Shapesh
1 Chariot of Fire

3 Chariots @ 201 pts (Champion; Musician; Standard Bearer; Blessings of the Asp) Tomb Prince goes in this unit
1 Banner of the Undying Legion

15 Skeleton Warriors @ 175 pts (Champion; Musician; Standard Bearer; Blessings of the Asp)

15 Skeleton Warriors @ 175 pts (Champion; Musician; Standard Bearer; Blessings of the Asp)

19 Tomb Guard @ 298 pts (Champion; Musician; Standard Bearer) Khalida goes in this unit
1 Icon of Rakaph

4 Carrion @ 96 pts

1 Tomb Scorpion @ 85 pts

1 Screaming Skull Catapult @ 110 pts (Skulls of the Foe)

Total Roster Cost: 2249

On your lizardmen army, cold one riders are way overpriced for what you get, but if you like them/bought the BN box, good on you.
As for your second list, too magic light to really compete with the Slann lizardmen list. Your magic phase will generally be non-existent except for Khalida's automatic spell, which will probably let you shoot your catapult a second time. Otherwise the Casket will really not do anything with Lizardmen's insane 3d6 leadership.

In reality, I see your lizardmen steam rolling right over that Tomb Kings list.

Skaven is great because beast vs beast! ( or if you can wait , BEAST OF CHAOS IN FEBRUARY! )

Chaos is also great because its like clash of the titans.

@TalonZahn

Hey there.
I've been playing TK for quite some time, and they are really an awesome army, as long as you learn to wield them carefully and to plan stuff out. Move phase is really important.

I have some tips on the army list though:

1. Casket is useless against lizzies due to "cold blooded"
2. Dont put the Hierophant on the casket, he is a direct target and usually gets blown apart turn 2 (he can't really take combat that long, so he either dies, or you have to revert chariots to charge that dragon, witch gives you a huge drawback in strategical planning). Hierophant should be the guy with the cloak, for added mobility.
3. Collar of Shapesh isn't really the best choice, but if you want the flaming chariot... Try the Spear, +1 ST on charges and regain wounds on chariots is great. Also, couple that with the Vambraces, doesn't seem that useful but might prove a life-saver.
4. Bowmen dont need Champion, that is just a waste of points.
5. I'm unsure about getting Khalida into combat, that staff of hers is genius, since it wrecks your opp move step, while yours is going haywire because of all the Incantation of Charge-with-that-unit-of-Chariots-that-moved-just-seconds-ago.
6. If you are playing Khalida and have the Blessings of the Asp at you disposal, for the love of god, get more archers. Another unit of 15 would be great (45 shots that hit on a 5, autowound on a 6....always...dude.)
7. Chariots with Burning Eye...+1 to hit when flank charging fixes the chariots biggest problem: WS2.

That's pretty much it. I hope you will enjoy the Tomb Kings as I do.


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*as MUCH as i do.

I don't think you should choose Tomb Kings if the person playing it isnt very experienced at WHFB because it is pretty different from some of the other armies and very hard to master. I'd recommend either Dark Elves, Daemons or WoC because they're all enemies of the Lizards and they can all be pretty competitive and still be a compact army. Your list looks pretty competitive too by the way

Agreed, I'd vote against tomb kings... if movement is so important, a beginner won't be able to crack your lizzies with 'em!

I'd say go with more of a "just add water" army, if there is such a thing. It looks like there's some pretty good suggestions in this thread... you also originally mentioned Empire, and as a gunline that's definitely got to be more straightforward to play with.

yeah tomb kings are not an easy army to master, but they give a whole lot of satisfaction if learned to wield properly. also, i think GW might reedit their army book, now that the Beastmen are almost out. so patience might also be worth it.

if you decide against TK, all i can say is that DoC might not be a smart choice either. if in the previous lists the TK have no chance, DoC are just too powerfull for the Lizzies, as they lack decent ranged attacks. i know skinks shoot, i know there are salamanders and stegadons, but skinks just dont do enough, and the stegadon decides to leave the board after a quick discussion with bloodletters. i'm saying this because i also have a not yet ready Daemons army along with my TK, and i played a lot of games against lizzies. The only thing that really hurts DoC are the Engines of the Gods...

Hey Boneserpent, welcome to Dakka . It's nice to see someone join and immediately contribute such useful info!

I know that was a little OT, so... back to your regularly scheduled thread now

Thanks RiTides for the greet.

Really cool forum, have been reading for a month before summing up the courage to write something...im still quite new to warhammer (6 months) so i hope im not messing things up, since the BigRedBook still scares me a little.

TheBoneserpent wrote:yeah tomb kings are not an easy army to master, but they give a whole lot of satisfaction if learned to wield properly. also, i think GW might reedit their army book, now that the Beastmen are almost out. so patience might also be worth it.

if you decide against TK, all i can say is that DoC might not be a smart choice either. if in the previous lists the TK have no chance, DoC are just too powerfull for the Lizzies, as they lack decent ranged attacks. i know skinks shoot, i know there are salamanders and stegadons, but skinks just dont do enough, and the stegadon decides to leave the board after a quick discussion with bloodletters. i'm saying this because i also have a not yet ready Daemons army along with my TK, and i played a lot of games against lizzies. The only thing that really hurts DoC are the Engines of the Gods...

Lizzies can compete with daemons, You just have to make sure you list is actually good, and you have tactical flexibility.

Bloodletters aren't that good at killing stegs, they only get 1 attack, have movement of 5, and toughness of 3. Sure they hit on 3s, but only wound on 5s. Since a steg is on a chariot base, you get 4 bloodletters in contact. 4 attacks, 3 hit, 1 wound? The steg will do much more damage than that. Since the steg has better movement, it probably will get the charge, and kill some with impact hits. Bloodletters don't even get a chance to strike.

Unless the DoC is a tzeentch army (dispel dice spam) or a khorne army (MR) they will have trouble stopping the magic onslaught of a Slaan. 6 spells? I get a bonus dice for each dice spell I try to cast? If I put a skink on an ancient steg and give him the plaque of tepok he is essentially a lvl 3 hero caster?

Engine of the gods is good against daemons, but that really is the icing on the cake. Lizards have a great rule for leadership. As long as you aren't out numbered, you have a good chance at avoiding the effects of fear, and have units that cause fear or terror also.


Also someone else said that cold one riders are overpriced. I disagree with that generalization. I do think that the OP spent too much on his unit. 300 for a unit of 6 is too much. 175 with no upgrades is a good deal for 10 S5 attacks on the charge with 5 S4. Knight units are for flanking. SCR is really only needed when you take on a unit head on. Cold one cavalry generate wins by killing things, and are very good at it. No command is needed.

Also I think that you don't need champs in your block units. They are a bit too pricey, and they really aren't needed with lizards. (lizards are tough, so can take more and don't need a chump to take a hit)

I have to disagree with you, notabot187. The Bloodletters have movement of 5 and a banner that gives them +D6 to their first charge. Not very reliable, I agree, but it never failed me (luck i suppose). Thats how i charged the Stegadon just yesterday. Also, Hatred if with Herald (Herald on Bloodcrusher with the +1ST flaming attacks sword and the armour of khorne) hits 2 ST 7 hits, the Bloodcrusher under him another 2 ST 5 hits, Bloodletter Champion another 2 ST 5 hits, and the last Bloodletter another ST 5 hit. So we have 7 hits, and believe me, with hatred about 5-6 of them hit and wound. Killing Blow sucks the Armour Saves out of the Skinks on the Stegadon, and high strength might even hit the beast from time to time, and if it still is not enough, another unit of Bloodletters with the same banner should be able to charge the Stegadon, thus forcing the Dino in two combats...

In the game i played yesterday with my almost complete Khorne army, i charged my opponents Ancient Stegadon with one unit of Bloodletters, as described above, and dealt 5 Wounds, had 2 Ranks, Standard and bigger US. The Stegadon dealt 3 Wounds, one of which i saved with my daemon-ward save. So i beat it with 7. He of course failed his insane courage roll, and ran off the table. Though i must admit 5 wounds was lucky, since 3 were in the crew and one in the priest, i still think that you can break the Monster without a sweat.

I must admit, i did not play against a Slann, since my opponent is scared of the Bloodthirster i will definitely wield in 2000+, so we played 1999 pts. Still, i think Lizzardmen are to slow to deal with a well made Daemons list. Sure, a Slaanesh army bent on wrecking the opponents LD will fail, due to cold blooded, but you still have Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch, and these will either flank the Saurus/Temple Guard/Stegadon (Flesh Hounds), or keep them in combat till they crumble (Nurgle specialty). I never tried tzeentch though, probably should. I'm curious how that will work out.

But I do agree with you on the fact that Champions in Saurus units are not needed. Also, i think it is indeed a good idea to drop the Champ and Musician from the Cold Ones.
All the best

So what you said is that a herald on a bloodcrusher in a unit of bloodletters is good at taking out a stegadon? That is a bit different than a unit of bloodletters taking on a steg. Also Killing blow only accounts for 1 in 6 hits when you attack the crew, so they will still have some saves. If you are bringing a herald, 2 units of bloodletters with full ranks and banners into one combat, of course you should win. You are afters all bringing MUCH more points to the battle than even a skink priest with engine and two levels costs. (at most around 400 vs at least 780?) What is the rest of the lizard army doing? Twiddling its thumbs while you slaughter them piecemeal?

Flanking temple guard with a slaan in it (the only time temple guard should be run IMHO) can be a mistake even with flesh hounds. They are Stubborn, ItP, LD 9 (from slaan) Cold blooded, and the slaan should be a BSB. That unit is not going to budge until they are all dead. Running your best hammer unit into your opponents best anvil unit sounds like fun, but it is playing into what they want you to do.

I'm not going to argue about daemons being good. That would be pointless. (they are a bit too good) But I will argue that lizards can take daemons on and have a better chance of beating them then most armies.

Hmmm... I think the original idea for the thread is how lizards would fare against tomb kings, am I right? The OP said daemons and VC are off the table, so we don't need to discuss them as a possibility.

And BoneSerpent, the Big Red Book scares me, too! That's why I have the little mini one . And I'm also new to fantasy, although it sounds like you're gaming regularly enough that you've already gotten the hang of it!

So Talon, decided upon an secondary army yet? What is it? And how is it working out for you?