Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So after a bit of time I decided to try and tackle this whole list building thing again. I wanted a list that was slightly less...boring than the other one that I came up with. Anyways here goes:

HQ
Vulken He'stan
190

Elites
Assault Terminators
- 6 Termies
- 4 with TH/SS and 2 with LC
- Land Raider Crusader w/ Extra Armour + MM
515 points

Troops
Tactical Squad
- 10 man
- Flamer with Multi-melta
- Sergeant w/ Meltabombs and Combi-Melta
- Rhino
210 points

Tactical Squad
- 10 man
- Flamer Multi-Melta
- Sergeant w/ Meltabombs and Combi-Melta
- Rhino
210 points

Scout Squad
- 5 man
- 4 Sniper Rifles + 1 ML
- 5 Camo Cloaks
- Sarge w/ Melta bombs
121 points

Fast Attack
Land Speeder
- 2 vehicle squad
- HF/MM
140 points

Heavy Support
Predator
- Autocannon, Heavy Bolt-...Dakka Pred
85 points


Total 1,491 points

so what do you guys think? ._. I know it's pretty standard for a Vulkan list, but it seems more interesting to play than the last one I pulled together...also I enjoy having fast attack. Not sure what to do with 8 extra points...

Ok, firstly problem is with the tactical sgt's. You've given them a combi weapon, but you will lose that extra attack for a pistol + ccw. Also I don't rate melta bombs, you only get one attack against a vehicle and you need 6's to hit against walkers. A power fist it much better than a melta bomb and power weapon combo (I know your not using p/w's) as can smack walkers and armour more easily, so better than melta bombs and also tackle monstrous creatures too. I would still add the combi weapons, just give them power fists instead of melta bombs where possible.

Meh 5 scouts won't do a lot hitting on 4+ then wounding on a 4+. Camo cloaks won't help when a heavy flamer comes along either. Sgt has melta bombs, but snipers are heavy and 36" so shouldn't be near vehicles or any need to attack them.

Two speeders in a squad? They'll get wasted pretty quickly as armour 10 and in a squad vehicles are weaker. I would split, this gives you unit redundancy and dual threat.

I would give that dakka predator a friend, can be easily picked off. Though I'd drop it and upgrade to a vindicator - vindicator can take out hordes, vehicles and monstrous creatures, dakka predator canno so well.

I would drop those scouts, drop the dakka pred and split the speeders. Then get a 5 man tactical squad, probably drop the 6th terminator as it isn't needed. Get two vindicators and should be ok. Hope that helps!

So taking in some of your advice I switched it up a bit. I dropped the melta bombs, Pred, Landspeeders, and one Terminator to add in 5 more Scouts, 3 Attack Bikes w/ MM (So if I need to I can rush some rangers or something, essentially they'll hide behind my rhino line), and a Vindicator. I wasn't sure whether or not to load out all the scouts with Sniper Rifles mainly because I can use them to hold objectives right? So why not combat squad and have 5 with the sniper rifles to take down MCs and the other 5 with the ML and bolters shoot at something else to make the ML worth while? Anyways...updated :O

HQ
Vulken He'stan
190

Elites
Assault Terminators
- 5 of them
- 3 w/ TH/SS 2 w/ LC
- Land Raider Crusader w/ Extra Armour
465 points

Troops
Tactical Squad
- 10 man
- Flamer with Multi-melta
-Sarge w/ Combi-Melta
- Rhino
215 points

Tactical Squad
- 10 man
- Flamer with Multi-melta
-Sarge w/Combi-Melta
- Rhino
215 points

Scout Squad
- 10 man
- 5 Sniper Rifles + 1 ML
- Sarge
150 points

Fast Attack

Attack Bike
3 man w/ MMs
150

Heavy Support
Vindicator
115 point

1,500 points.

Oh, and I plan to use my Tac squads as a sort of midfield and only charging when needed.

List looks better....

I still don't rate scouts. You're still hitting on 4+ and wounding on 4+ with a sniper rifle. You then combat squad down. Ok for holding objectives, but what you going to do when a heavy flamer rolls up? Burn, thats what will happen. Tactical squad is the way forward, same tactics though more or less.

You really need 3 multi melta shots at one target? I don't think so. Speeders were better, I'd put them back in.

I would really try with two vindicators if you can.

Hmmm well a list I had before this that I was going to use was basically same HQ and same Elites, but dropped the Speeders, Scouts, and all tactical squads were stripped down to just ridin' in Rhinos for another Tac Sqaud w/ Rhino and another Vindicator....

Before that I had the same HQ same Elites, but 2 troops of Tac Squads (also stripped to Rhinos), 2 Squads of 2 Land Speeders, and 2 Dakka preds >_>

If you drop those scouts you can take several of mercer's suggestions, such as PF's on sargeant's etc. Scouts just aren't worth it since they got nerfed down.

Sniper Scouts don't really do anythying I'd only take them as a Telion delivery system or not at all. Why give the Sarge meltabombs? Just throwing 5 points away. If you're goinmg with Scouts i'd generally advise CC scouts they hit pretty much as hard as assault marines but are cheaper and can hold objectives.

Dakka preds are pretty useless IMO, I'd rather have a Whirlwind for anti-horde.

I don't see the value in taking LCs on your terminators at all. I wouldn't take LCs in an Ultramarine list but a Cheese'Tan list? Why? Why? Why would you do that?

2nd list looks better but as your shots are TL I don't see why you'd need 3 ABs in one squad. A squad of 2 is fine.

10 Scouts 5 with snipers and a ML how are you combat squading that? Again BS3 means shooting scouts don't do much damage if any. Again arm them up for CC or don't bother.

Well speeders are actually better than bikes. Your speeders need 6's from S4 weapon to glance, bikes are T5 so need 5's and can be taken down a little easier with torrent of fire. Though main benefits are deep strike, you drop in behind a tank or at the side and melt its side armour - bye bye tank You can turbo boost 24" as the speeder is a fast skimmer, which also gives you a 4+ cover save. Bike can only move 18" but gets 3+ cover save. Also, no terrain tests for skimmers (only if they start of land in terrain) and can still turbo boost over terrain, unlike bikes.

If you are going to take bikes then I would take them really in unit of 2's. Reason is because one won't last 5 minutes on its own, and 3 in a unit is too much. Something doesn't need to be shot at 3 times with meltas.

I would pop the speeders back in, that gives you 10 points over. I would try and add in another vindicator, but you won't have enough points. When push comes to shove I'd really drop the scouts and get another tactical squad as I don't think they really cut the mustard, they're best in combat and for tying units up, thats all really.

See the major thing with some athis advice is that I've been told that with the new rules scoring unit are rather important. That's why I wanted to have 3, so I could afford to take some riskes. Also for LCs on assault terms...I think I'll keep them mainly because they get to strike first I believe and potentially limit the amount of hits I have to take until my TH/SS can clean up. Well anyways thanks for the advice. I think the best I can do now is try out what I ahve and make adjustments as I go along.

Well the new rules aren't that new, they've been out over a year now. Scoring units are important as objective games are 2/3's of the mission type. But if your troops can't hold objectives then what is the point? You have better troops which cost 20 points more and get free weapons, I would use them. You still have 3 troop units anyway.

I would keep the l.c's on some of the assault terminators at least. It allows you to go first (mostly) and you get more attacks. Against low toughness armies l.c's are enough, hammers are over kill. Against hordes claws are better. You want a mix though in case a walker assaults you, your claws won't scratch it or whack a monstrous creature.

Skip the snipers.

Vindicators also suck, they do well in a flanking army or in a defensive one but that´s it.
The vindi is a defensive reacting tank, it is to slow to hunt targets and really bad when your army needs to move around hunting objectives.
Then that the vindo would be good vs monstrous creatures is not true, the majority of MC are not instant killed by the vindi, it scatters a lot and needs to be close to be effective and that also means it is close for the enemy to assault it.

Attack bikes!
Use them. They are the new anti tank power unit in the SM arsenal just as speeders once were but are not over nerfed.
Landspeeders are difficult if not outright impossible to hide, go down from simple bolter fire (remember a glancing means at best that the speedeer cannot fire the next turn) while a wound on a bike means it still has one left and can do whatever it wishes.
If a speeder deep strikes it cannot fire as it counts as moving over 12´.
But the number one advantage of the bike over the speeder is that it counts as infantry, it gets 4+ saves if behind stuff (doesnt need to flat out for that cover save contrary to the hard to hide speeder) and it can TIE up enemy infantry units.
This is invaluable when you face shooty horde armies like necrons, IG, Tau etc etc.
Those simple bikes will flat out and then slam into the fire lines tying up the shooters while the rest of your army can move in.
This a speeder lack.

Also try and take missiles in your tacs, even if Vulkan is leading the army since MM is worthless vs all kinds of mech eldar armies and even against normal armies as well. You drive forward, park and hope the enemy simply doesnt move his vehicle out of the 12´MM reach as with the missile you have a 48´reach and the enemy cannot evade it as with the MM. The MM combt squad is also worthless as it cant reach anything.

Keep the ATbikes but split them up in as many fast slots as possible, preferable 1 bike per fast slot for three fast slots. Keep away from the over expencive speeder at all cost it requires more tactics, more babysitting, is far more fragile and less flexible in not being able to tie up things. Sure it can DS but then has to hope the enemy wont blow it up since it needs to wait a turn to be able to shoot that MM and you never use the DS for the flamer since that means you risk scatterign it to death.

Pyriel- wrote:Also try and take missiles in your tacs, even if Vulkan is leading the army since MM is worthless vs all kinds of mech eldar armies and even against normal armies as well. You drive forward, park and hope the enemy simply doesnt move his vehicle out of the 12´MM reach as with the missile you have a 48´reach and the enemy cannot evade it as with the MM. The MM combt squad is also worthless as it cant reach anything.

Or you could be a good player and move them into midfield and use the mm's there? 12" reach? Last I saw a mm shot 24"...

Pyriel- wrote:Keep the ATbikes but split them up in as many fast slots as possible, preferable 1 bike per fast slot for three fast slots. Keep away from the over expencive speeder at all cost it requires more tactics, more babysitting, is far more fragile and less flexible in not being able to tie up things. Sure it can DS but then has to hope the enemy wont blow it up since it needs to wait a turn to be able to shoot that MM and you never use the DS for the flamer since that means you risk scatterign it to death.

Speeders need to wait a turn before shooting after deep striking?

Someone that does not know basic rules should not be giving out advice...

With the large amount of anti-tank weapons out there, it's not much more difficult to bring down attack bikes anymore either.

Or you could be a good player and move them into midfield and use the mm's there? 12" reach? Last I saw a mm shot 24"...

Why, its more simple not having to with a 48´weapon.
Mech eldar and tau will laugh at that 24´and everything else mech will laugh at the 12´melta range.

Speeders need to wait a turn before shooting after deep striking?

Someone that does not know basic rules should not be giving out advice...

Dont have the rule book with me since I am abroad but as I remember I read that a DS speeder counts as moving to fast to shoot the MM.

...or you could simply be less condescending and just tell whats in the rulebook clarifying the thing as I´m quite sure you know everything in it by heart yourself.

With the large amount of anti-tank weapons out there, it's not much more difficult to bring down attack bikes anymore either.

As you are quite aware of it 5 naked space marines rapid fireing stand about 50% chance of penetrating a speeder. Thats to easy to down such an expencive and hard to hide vehicle.

The bike can at least tie things up that threaten to shoot it or the rest of the army and thus be of use in more ways then the speeder.

Either way. You can deepstrike and shoot 1 weapon on a speeder. Bolters cannot pen a speeder, only glance it.

True, then again, one glanced speeder equals a non shooting one at best.

Pyriel- wrote:True, then again, one glanced speeder equals a non shooting one at best.

But glancing is a whole world away from a penetrating hit.

If you cannot give sound advice backed up by proper facts rather than improper ones, it's hard to take anything you post as serious.

As far as mech eldar and tau 'laughing' at 24" range, you do realize that a mm in midfield denies a HUGE portion of the board to their opponents, right?

MM does not have to be in 2d6 range to be a huge threat to armor outside of av14.

Midfield mm's are better at threatening armor than backfield ml's.

As far as mech eldar and tau 'laughing' at 24" range, you do realize that a mm in midfield denies a HUGE portion of the board to their opponents, right?

And a ML in the middle of he board denies the enemy almost all of said board contrary to the MM.
Talk about missing things and giving advice yourself. Live as you learn perhaps?


And yes a glanced speeders is just a bonus target for the enemy.
And no matter how you twist it, it still cant ie up dangerous unit.

As for my advice go ahead and look up my posts, I looked up yours and relying on speeder heavy lists is not as effective as it once was.

Pyriel- wrote:

As far as mech eldar and tau 'laughing' at 24" range, you do realize that a mm in midfield denies a HUGE portion of the board to their opponents, right?

And a ML in the middle of he board denies the enemy almost all of said board contrary to the MM.
Talk about missing things and giving advice yourself. Live as you learn perhaps?


And yes a glanced speeders is just a bonus target for the enemy.
And no matter how you twist it, it still cant ie up dangerous unit.

As for my advice go ahead and look up my posts, I looked up yours and relying on speeder heavy lists is not as effective as it once was.

I haven't missed a thing. You seem to keep ignoring the fact that a mm is far superior than a ml vs armor in a 24" range. I have already shown that the 24" range for a mm is fairly easy to overcome and can be quite effective.

Tac squads are about area denial. I don't need to deny the entire board to someone to be effective.

Considering the amount of errors you have in this thread, I don't need to search your post history to find anything else out.

I haven't missed a thing. You seem to keep ignoring the fact that a mm is far superior than a ml vs armor in a 24" range. I have already shown that the 24" range for a mm is fairly easy to overcome and can be quite effective.

Tac squads are about area denial. I don't need to deny the entire board to someone to be effective.

Considering the amount of errors you have in this thread, I don't need to search your post history to find anything else out.

When you play against noob SM armies then yes, the MM is a perfect choice.
When you face competitive stuff like mech eldar, mech tau, IG who know how to play and such the MM is only good on attack bikes.
The ease with which a opponent can avoid the 12´MM effective range is laughable and above 12´it works just like the ML just that the ML ads even greater range.

Tacs are far from only used in area denial, its one thing to set up a tac but quite anotehr to arm them properly to work against ALL oppoents not just the noobs you seen to face since your stationary MM works just as well as a ML.
Tacs are also used as support units for the rest of the army and objective grabbers with above average staying power vs most shooty enemis but I guess you´ll learn that yourself in due time.

And claiming speeders are more effective then ATbikes in the current edition of the game is hillareous. No wonder that you dont "bother" to check the rest of my posts up.

When you dont even recognize these things and based on the flaws you make with multimeltas then I have nothing else to tell you or add, simply come back after enough tournament games or cheesy eldar armies have abraded avay your pride and we´ll talk again. Till then have fun with your speeders and tac multimeltas trying in vain to use their 12´range.

Pyriel- wrote:When you play against noob SM armies then yes, the MM is a perfect choice.
When you face competitive stuff like mech eldar, mech tau, IG who know how to play and such the MM is only good on attack bikes.
The ease with which a opponent can avoid the 12´MM effective range is laughable and above 12´it works just like the ML just that the ML ads even greater range.

Umm...vs eldar wave serpents, there is no 12" 'effective range'. And since when are ml's ap1? Hmmm? That's another critical thing you have missed among many in this thread.

Pyriel- wrote:Tacs are far from only used in area denial, its one thing to set up a tac but quite anotehr to arm them properly to work against ALL oppoents not just the noobs you seen to face since your stationary MM works just as well as a ML.
Tacs are also used as support units for the rest of the army and objective grabbers with above average staying power vs most shooty enemis but I guess you´ll learn that yourself in due time.

If one ml or mm for 205pts (including rhino) is your idea of a 'support unit' for space marines, then I can't help you. It's entirely a side affect of them being compulsory troop choices. They are resilient, one of the few saving graces tac marines have. Their main strength lies in their bolters and their ability to make heavy armor from coming in and contesting objectives. Try to squeeze more things out of them vs a good general and you are the one that will 'learn' things in due time.

Pyriel- wrote:And claiming speeders are more effective then ATbikes in the current edition of the game is hillareous. No wonder that you dont "bother" to check the rest of my posts up.

Like I already stated, I learned enough from this thread. I don't need to check anything else out. AB's are good, speeders are better.

Pyriel- wrote:When you dont even recognize these things and based on the flaws you make with multimeltas then I have nothing else to tell you or add, simply come back after enough tournament games or cheesy eldar armies have abraded avay your pride and we´ll talk again. Till then have fun with your speeders and tac multimeltas trying in vain to use their 12´range.

Sigh. Here you go again with 12" range vs mechdar. You can't even do math correctly...

The biggest key to a melta over a ML is simply that a melta can wreck a vehicle on a glance where a ML cannot. So despite the decrease in range which, unless you are playing on a massive table, is not much of a loss as long as you go with redundancy to apply overlapping areas of threat. As far as a speeder vs AB goes, my thought are as follows. Speeders ability to deliver the shot to rear armor in double pen range is increased. They are far more resistant to small arms fire then a bike, and though they may crumple if charged by a squad, they will most likely only be hit on 6's if played properly, and are never engaged allowing them to continue to fulfill their primary objective of tank hunting. Should you get an AB stuck in with just about anything they will most likely be murdered, and even if they survive they have not been accomplishing their primary mission of armor or MC hunting. Not to mention that most things that can one hit a speeder rather reliably will do the same to an attack bike, probably even worse.

Umm...vs eldar wave serpents, there is no 12" 'effective range'. And since when are ml's ap1? Hmmm? That's another critical thing you have missed among many in this thread.

Havent missed a thing.
The AP1 ia not as important vs eldar then a 48´range´.'
And about "forgetting" if you can keep forgetting about tying up troops that shoot to good then well, one more time, perhaps you should live like you teach.

If one ml or mm for 205pts (including rhino) is your idea of a 'support unit' for space marines, then I can't help you. It's entirely a side affect of them being compulsory troop choices. They are resilient, one of the few saving graces tac marines have. Their main strength lies in their bolters and their ability to make heavy armor from coming in and contesting objectives. Try to squeeze more things out of them vs a good general and you are the one that will 'learn' things in due time.

Need I run you through the usage of tacs, I thought you were a decent player by your own accounts.
Todays SM tacs are far from what tehy have been once. They are no longer anyhitng dedicated such as shooty or assaulty units but mere support for the better parts in the army.
But why am I ranting to you, there are countless threads where the tacs and their current roles are better discussed, use the search function and you shall find.

But if you insist in your folly then show me a working competitive all tac SM army and I´ll concede.
Oh I forgot...there aint such a thing today.

Like I already stated, I learned enough from this thread. I don't need to check anything else out. AB's are good, speeders are better.

Wrong but you are naturally entitled to your own opinon.
Besides your close minded approach to "learning" leaves a lot to be wished for and it tells me everything I need to know.

Sigh. Here you go again with 12" range vs mechdar. You can't even do math correctly...

An argument without any actual trace of any argument.
Nice try.

The biggest key to a melta over a ML is simply that a melta can wreck a vehicle on a glance where a ML cannot. So despite the decrease in range which, unless you are playing on a massive table, is not much of a loss as long as you go with redundancy to apply overlapping areas of threat. As far as a speeder vs AB goes, my thought are as follows. Speeders ability to deliver the shot to rear armor in double pen range is increased. They are far more resistant to small arms fire then a bike, and though they may crumple if charged by a squad, they will most likely only be hit on 6's if played properly, and are never engaged allowing them to continue to fulfill their primary objective of tank hunting. Should you get an AB stuck in with just about anything they will most likely be murdered, and even if they survive they have not been accomplishing their primary mission of armor or MC hunting. Not to mention that most things that can one hit a speeder rather reliably will do the same to an attack bike, probably even worse.

True until you play vs competitive players. Protecting a rear of a vehicle from somehting like a drop pod is childshli simple and even more so vs a speeder that often must be used in a sacraficial way to get that rear shot.
I used everything but MMs in tacs for a long time, then I switched to MM in tacs when vulkan and his rules became available and yes, they work wonders but that is untill you face good tau an deldar players. Heck even skilled mech IG will laugh at the MM in a tac. Today the tac staying power is also seriously nerfed due to all the AP3 weapons and templates and every army out there being able to outmelee the tac with ease.

And the speeder is worse then the ATB against small arms fire.
6 bolter hits on an ATB will make for a "statistical" 0.66 wounds meaning the ATB wont get affected in any negative way the next turn.
The speeder facing 6 bolter shots will get a "statistical" glance, meaning it will be unable to shoot, crash and burn if moved enough, crash and becomes a sitting duck if not moved enough or gets destroyed. The turn after if your speeeder cant even shoot or gets the weapon destroyed, it gets destroyed.

Against heavy weapons that can down it with ease (or instantkill the ATB) the speeder can get a 4+ save vs the 3+ of the ATB.
And again, there is the important role of being able to tie up enemy infantry either to negate superior shooting or to create LOS negating zones.
All of whick weasen keeps "forgetting" about while he tries to hide his need to look up things further since he already knows it all apparently

I have been playing all DS armies or partial DS armies forever, rarely do I play non DS armies and its a childs play to keep safe vs deepstriking anti armour units like pods and speeders.

Yes if you get your ATB stuck in unfavorable melee its over but then again its easier to keep them away from those circumstances then it is to babysit a speeder that is even harder to hide.
Then again if you want to utilize the speeder HF against melee troops that might make it worth it (like steelers) they can spread out and easily counter it and the surviving models will kill the speeder due to sheer amount of attacks.
what I am saying is that both the ATB and the speeder often need to be used together with intersupporting units but it is easier to babysit the bike and it can perform more flexible roles (tying up) then the speeder.
I stopped using speeders when the new codex came, until then I cant remember not having at least three of them in almost every list i made but then tehy were better then bikes.

Couple things I'd like to say

Attack Bikes are 4(5) toughness and can get instakilled by anything 8 strength

Even if you get a glancing or penetrating hit that doesn't mean your slag.

Multi-meltas are AP1 so they get the +1 on the damage table even at 24" range

And if your gunna play a Vulcan Cheese'Stan list play to your strengths which means Master-craft Thunder Hammer